Leadership Book Club: How To Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie

Kristen: [00:00:00] Welcome to Love and Leadership, the podcast that helps you lead with both your head and your heart, plus a bit of humor. I'm Kristen Brun Sharkey, a leadership coach and facilitator.

Mike: And I'm Mike Sharkey, a senior living and hospitality executive. We're a couple of leadership nerds who also happen to be a couple.

Kristen: Join us each week as we share our unfiltered opinions, break down influential books, and interview inspiring guests.

Mike: Whether you're a seasoned executive or a rising star, we're here to help you level up your leadership game and amplify your impact.

Kristen: \ Hello and welcome back to Love and Leadership. I'm Kristen 

Mike: and I'm Mike.

Kristen: And today we have a much awaited LBC episode

~ with ~ 

on How a [00:01:00] Win Friends and Influence People by very well-known Dale Carnegie. This is a classic book.

Mike: It's so good. I love this book. I've read this book, and again, when I say read, I mean listened to in the car probably 10 times. Yeah. Maybe not 10, maybe eight. But,~ uh,~ it's a very positive book.

Whoever I have,~ uh,~ reading it to, he's got a real like 1940s radio voice and it's soothing and positive and it ~kind of like, ~it's one of those things that kind of grounds me in what I'm doing, ~you know, ~and I, a lot of times before I'll take a new job,~ I'll,~ I'll read this book to remember. Nice. ~Some, ~Some really core principles, if you will.

~This guy's voice is, I gotta look how, who it is now that we're talking. Um, but he's, it, it sounds like he's out of like the HUD sucker proxy or something and it's just Yeah, it's~

Kristen: ~it depends on what probably edition you're listening to ~

Mike: ~well,~

~I'm sure. I mean, it was the straight audible edition. I don't know if it's the up anyway.~

Kristen: ~um, hold on. This ~

Mike: ~I don't know what she's getting. Maybe some literature. My wife likes good literature. She likes a steamy Navy Seals literature book.~

~Oh, There's some stuff in there you're gonna need to cut out. I'll tell you right now.~

Kristen: ~It's~

Mike: ~Sorry.~

Kristen: ~You're just riffing over ~

Mike: ~No, I'm, yeah, it's, I was talking about literature. yeah. Oh Uh, to win friends people. ~

Kristen: ~okay.~

So let's talk a little bit about the background of this book. ~So, Dale Carnegie,~

Dale Carnegie was

Mike: Not Carnegie Mellon. ~Not, ~not Dale, not the Carnegie,

not Andrew carnegie talking about, yeah, ~he changed, ~he changed his spelling to Yes.associate [00:02:00] himself. 

Kristen: ~Um, ~But he was born into poverty on a farm in Missouri.

And he ended up going to college, getting a job in sales. He started teaching public speaking in 1912. And then from that, the Dale Carnegie course evolved, which became the Dale Carnegie Institute. And yes, as you noted, his birth surname was Carnegie, but it was spelled like differently, like C-A-R-N-E-G-E-Y.

But he decided to change it ~after he gave a luxury,~ after he gave a lecture at Carnegie Hall in honor of Andrew Carnegie. And he thought it'd be easier to spell and, ~you know, ~prestige, I'm sure.~ Um, ~And he published How to Win Friends and Influence People in 1936, which is kind of crazy. So this book is about to come up on its 90 year anniversary.

Mike: So I just looked up the guy that narrates it, and his name is Andrew McMillan. And he is not who you would think, I mean, he is very British, [00:03:00] but he looks like he's 32 and he looks like he's in a ska band or something. 

Kristen: ~Huh?~

Mike: He's an, he's an author and a poet, if that makes sense. He's so well spoken. ~He, ~he just, the annunciation, the pronunciation, the, it's like,~ uh, um, and tion of,~

~You~

~know, spoken word that you don't hear, you know?~

the command of the language that you don't hear nowadays. Certainly not for me, But,~ uh,~ I just, yeah, that's part of why I've read the book so many times, 

Kristen: ~well,~

it's good. Yeah. selling point for the audio book.

Mike: It's so good.~ Um,~

Kristen: ~yeah, it's, it's really hard to under or to state how, wow.~

~I'm really bad at talking today. This is gonna be~

Mike: ~well, your, your, your pregnancy brain is getting smaller by, uh,~

Kristen: ~uh, yeah. Um, the~

Mike: ~liter on the way.~

Kristen: ~it's,~

Mike: ~He's taking up more and more blood flow.~

Kristen: ~So I think what I was trying to say is~ It's hard to overstate just how successful this book is, and it was from the outset,~ um,~ when it debuted, it was already a bestseller

Mike: In 1936.

Kristen: In 1936, and he died in 1955, so almost 20 years later from Hodgkin Lymphoma. And it had already sold 5 million copies.

Mike: So it says it's sold so far over 30 million copies. I don't know if that includes audio books, but I

Kristen: That probably includes everything. But yeah, it's one of the bestselling books of all time

Mike: And there's a reason for it, and [00:04:00] it's very unlike almost all other leadership books that you will read. And it, ~you know, ~I avoided and I heard about this book when I was young and I didn't read it.~ You know, ~You think it's a how to win friends and in how to win fr it's not how to win friends, it's how to succeed in business.

Kristen: It's how to succeed in business.

Mike: And it doesn't say that, but, ~you~

Kristen: Well, mostly actually.

Mike: well,

Kristen: ~you know, ~Originally there was a little more to it than that. But interestingly,

Mike: ~you know, ~I think ~these are, ~these are concepts and principles you can put into practice in just normal relationships. And like, when you're talking to the barista or whatever, your wife. ~I mean, he, ~He has a section in there where he talks about ~like ~a very grouchy man ~who, ~who like his, he started being nice to his wife, who he was a long suffering 30, or, ~you know, ~serving him.

And she fainted when he started to say nice things to her. She was like,~ I,~ I, what's happening? Um, so 

Kristen: Yes. Well, interesting. I wanted to talk a little bit about editions before we dive into the book. 'cause ~there's, ~there's so many of 'em.~ Um, ~the text has really [00:05:00] been updated twice. So once in 1981 by Dale Carnegie's wife, and then again in 2022, very recently by his daughter Donna. So for the purpose of these notes, I decided to use the Dale

Mike: Dale Carnegie's daughter. Yes. Was still alive in 22.

Kristen: Yeah. 

Mike: Wow. 

Kristen: ~Yeah. Well he died in 1955. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know how old she~

Mike: ~was. So if he died in nine. Okay. So he was born, when was he born?~

Kristen: ~Born. He, um, he was ~

Mike: ~Hold on.~

Kristen: ~in~

~notes. ~

Mike: ~math is bothering me.~

~He was born in 1988. His daughter is not alive in 22. He died at 66. At age 55 maybe. I mean, if he had a daughter when he was 50, so 45, I guess she could still be alive. I'm wrong.~

Kristen: Donna Dale Carnegie is the daughter of Dale Carnegie.~ Um,~

Mike: She must be like 80 though.

Kristen: But yeah, ~she's probably, getting ~

Mike: ~gonna try and do a quick recording, but that didn't happen. We have my glasses at the book. The book yet.~

Kristen: ~Um, yeah,~ I don't know how old she

Mike: is. Her middle name is Dale. He named, oh my God.

Kristen: Uhhuh. ~Yeah. Um, yeah, I don't know how old she is, but ~

Mike: ~he~

~I can't even pull her up. It's just pulling up, pulling up him.~

~dale. That's, that's pretty egotistical. ~

Kristen: ~I don't know. But this is also a different, this is different times, right? ~

Mike: ~Yeah, it's ~

Kristen: ~Um,~

~Yeah,~~ she and Carnegie had a daughter, Donna Dale, she ran the Carnegie Company~

Mike: ~She serves him as chairman of the board. Okay. Well, she, you know, if he had her, I guess he died when he was only 66.~

~So if he had a daughter when he was 55, I mean, that's pretty late. That's 1945. So if he had a daughter when he was 45, now we're talking about 1935. That is a pretty older, you know, but she must be like ~

Kristen: ~Yeah. I, I do not, ~

Mike: ~well, his second, his second spouse is still alive. Dorothy Price Vanderpool. Born in 1912. Oh, she did die Okay.~

~All right. Well, I'm glad we didn't resolve that, but,~

Kristen: ~so,~ so ~she's, ~she's alive at least as of 2022. Sure.~ Um, ~and yeah. I can't tell how old she is. So

Mike: she's old.

Kristen: ~She's~

Mike: ~not, ~she's not young. She's not young.

Kristen: ~Um, ~So yeah, so this, so 2022 was the most recent edition published.

I decided to use this edition ~when, ~when doing the notes for this. ~Um, ~just because the original is almost 90 years old. ~Um, ~There's naturally gonna be parts of it that don't age very [00:06:00] well, and I didn't really, I thought that would be mostly a distraction.

Mike: So which edition has I have? I read because I didn't find anything that was particularly anachronistic or racist.

~You know, ~He wasn't like, only be nice to white people.

Kristen: Yeah. I don't know. You'd have to look it up. But,~ um,~ and I don't think there, ~I mean, ~I think that the worst of it probably came out ~in the, ~in the 1981 edition. I don't know. I'm not a scholar. I haven't compared all these, I do really interestingly, I have a, it's one of my most prized possessions.

I have a 1960s print of this that was my dad's, um, who passed away about five years ago. And it has like, all his highlighting and stuff in it. But it is the original, like the original,~ um,~ edition basically. I mean, it's a 1960s print of it, but, so ~I did, ~I did skim it a little bit. ~Um, ~Like for the table of contents, there's a couple things that were interesting that just ~I'll, ~I'll note just for fun.

So, um, I mean, there's definitely a lot of things like this book, and I will [00:07:00] say ~this, ~this does ~kind of ~come through, I think even in the newer edition, this book was written for men because Sure. Business leaders at the time were like almost exclusively men. And

Mike: We hadn't had the workforce revolution of World War

Kristen: ~Yeah, ~Yeah. ~So, um, they, you know, ~There's, there were a lot of references to men in the ~titles of the book, the ~titles of the chapters and everything like that. ~Um, ~But what was really interesting is the original also had two extra sections. ~Um, ~This current edition has four parts, so the less exciting one was on writing business letters. It's just kind of outdated. ~Um, ~but there was also a final section called Seven Rules for Making Your Home Life Happier.

Just basically marriage advice for men in the 1930s. ~Um, ~It's all about referencing your wife,~ um, kind of ~as you would expect. ~I, ~I gave it a skim. It honestly was a lot better than I was expecting. I was really,

Mike: What were you expecting?~ ~

Kristen: ~The ~

Mike: ~Don't be nice to Afro Dark people.~

Kristen: ~I mean, like, ~most of the, at least [00:08:00] the principle core principles ~were, ~were like pretty solid advice, but ~like, ~obviously it's just assuming, ~you know, there's, ~there's some problems there. ~Um, ~I think it's pretty obvious why this was omitted by,

Mike: I read

Kristen: from the later editions.

Mike: I read one of his other books too, how to Stop Worrying and Start Living.

Kristen: Oh yeah. I haven't read that one.

Mike: It's okay. I mean, it's like, don't think about stuff, like go zen.. I mean, ~it's it a little bit, it kind of is. Um,~ it wasn't that helpful to me, but

Kristen: Thunk.

Mike: ~Thunk, ~Thunk, what was that? 

Kristen: I don't know. That wasn on your end

Mike: No, it 

Kristen: Oh,

I don't know. 

Mike: ~No,~

~that wasn't me.~

Kristen: ~Okay.~

Mike: ~Okay. ~Beezus is in bed. We have not had any cat visitors since we added cats to love and leadership.

Kristen: I know. That's really, it's

Mike: A very cat poor podcast.

Kristen: They know.

Mike: They know. They know man. They,

Kristen: they know. Yeah.

Mike: It's a very strange life form, the cat.

Kristen: It really is.

Mike: ~80% ~

Kristen: ~Um, ~But yeah, so I think we can, I think we're good to go ahead and actually jump

Mike: Really after that half an hour.

Kristen: It hasn't been that long. It's been like 12 minutes. 

Mike: Okay. Wow.

Andor Okay. [00:09:00] Listen. And the second season of, Andor put live right now, three episodes are available on Disney Plus, and we are, this is how much we are devoted to the growth of leadership in

Kristen: Yeah. And we're,

Mike: America

Kristen: We're behind on episodes right now, so that's why we're recording the last minute.

So, um, not behind on

Mike: I'm not behind on episodes. Oh,~ you,~ you don't mean And podcast. Podcast episodes.

Kristen: Episodes. ~So, um, ~Yeah, this is how this happened.

Mike: ~you know, ~if it was like Ahsoka, I wouldn't care, but this is, and or

Kristen: I know. But here we are recording

Mike: One way out.

Kristen: Yet he keeps adding tangents 'cause he can't resist. ~So, you know.~

Mike: Ouch.

~Mm-hmm. ~Is that in your dad's? ~Uh, ~1966 edition? I've had to win friends and influence people make snarky, un snarky, slightly passive aggressive.

Kristen: ~There's no, ~There's no section for

Mike: there's no section for wives.

Kristen: This book was not originally written for me, so

Mike: It's okay. I corrected your spelling of Hodgkin's, by the way.

Kristen: Oh my [00:10:00] God.

Yeah. Okay.

Mike: Okay, listen. Important. We may use this again. Some you say

Kristen: You say that every time,

Mike: Spend a lot of time correcting text messages. I'll tell you. I'm gonna stop. I'm gonna behave more like

Kristen: What was that about? How to stop worrying and start?

Mike: that in that book? You need to reread this book, my friend. Okay.

Kristen: Oh, okay. So ~we're,~ as I mentioned, there's four parts to this. ~Um, ~The structure's a little bit different from most books in that the chapter numbers start over in each section. So there's actually ~like,~

Mike: They barely had writing in

Kristen: four. Oh yeah, totally. Nobody wrote any books before 1936. Nobody at all English teachers everywhere are crying. ~Um, ~Yeah, no,~ so,~ so just in, there's gonna be like four chapter ones. So just know that it's all in the context of the part that we're talking about. So part one [00:11:00] is Fundamental Techniques in Handling People. And the first chapter is, If You Wanna Gather Honey, Don't Kick Over the Bee Hive.

And he opens this up by talking about a few notorious criminals from the 

Mike: yeah, Dillinger. I'm Dillinger. 

Kristen: Yeah. Yeah. And he is, and he talks about like how when asked, none of them blamed themselves for 

Mike: Yeah. 

Kristen: And he believes that 99 times out of 100 people don't criticize themselves for anything.

Mike: He had a good,~ uh,~ example of Taft, the President Taft, who was responsible for the Teapot Dome scandal.~ Let me fact check that. Teapot Dome. Yep. And I think, I can't remember the whole thing, but like, Taft also was kind of responsible for like the Democratic party not winning Teddy Roosevelt.~

~And at the end, you know, ~No, it was the, who was, it Harding? ~it was Taft. ~Anyway, at the end, he was like, I don't see how I could have done anything any different. Oh,~ yeah,~ yeah. Really nothing. Okay. ~Uh, ~So that kind of lack of humility is, you know, Not what we learned about it in ~Navy Seals, how we, uh,~ Extreme Ownership, How US Navy Seal Lead and Win.

Kristen: Yeah. There, there are a lot of stories interspersed

Mike: in it's all, it's a lot of stories. 

Kristen: ~Um, ~And they're, [00:12:00] but I think what I liked about this edition is they didn't try to like modernize 'em. 

Mike: there. they're,

~you know,~

Kristen: They're all like stories from very different times than you usually read in business books today, Princip.

Mike: But principles are principles and truth is truth. And those things should be timeless. ~And, ~And yeah. ~You know, ~for sure, ~you know, uh, ~how we value people and interact with people and treat everybody equally. Those things have changed, but like these, ~you know, ~virtues and principles are, ~ uh, ~constant.

Kristen: Yeah. I found it refreshing, honestly, to have so many kind of like historical stories, which of course were not really historical at the time. ~Most of them, ~Most of them had happened

Mike: ~you know, ~They were current. He was talking about ~a, a, ~a criminal Dillinger who like shoots cops and ~like, ~is eventually involved in some crazy shootout with the police and leaves a note saying, I'm a gentle soul. Murdered like 30 people or something, ~you ~So we see, ~you know, ~everybody wants to see themselves as good.

Kristen: Yeah. And where this is going is ~he, ~he says ~like, criticize is, is, ~criticism is futile because ~it, ~it just [00:13:00] puts people on the defensive and it makes them strive to justify themselves.

It wounds their pride, it hurts their sense of importance. And it brings up resentment. It does not lead to lasting changes.

And this is definitely a theme throughout this book. ~Um, ~He says, criticisms are like homing pigeons. They always return home.

Mike: ~So, you know, ~And he goes on ~like, ~people are creatures of emotion, not logic.

This is pretty forward thinking for 1936. 

Kristen: Oh yeah, definitely. 

Mike: but it, reading this, the way you phrase it is, ~you know, in ~in military theory we talk about~ the most, ~the best approach is the indirect approach. ~Mm-hmm. ~Napoleon was very famous for ~like, ~just attacking straight on and he had a big ego about it.

And it worked for him sometimes 'cause he, he was a brilliant tactician, but it didn't work a lot ~and, ~and he suffered, ~you know, ~some ~catastrophic, ~catastrophic defeats. It is much better to flank your enemy or surprise him from behind than it is to try and attack his most fortified position. ~And, ~And for a human, that's their, the way they think of themselves, their ego, their identity.[00:14:00] 

And,~ I,~ I'm sorry to bring it back to Jocko, but like I learned that from a giant out of central casting Navy seal that ~you, you know, ~taking an indirect approach with people to guide them is far more effective than, ~you know, ~just attacking their weakness or attacking their problem.

Kristen: Yep, for sure.

And then where this leads to, each of these chapters have like a very clear, concise principle that summarizes them, which my brain likes. Um,~ ~I like structure.

Mike: I think he talked about Abraham Lincoln either in that chapter later on, and he referred to Abraham Lincoln as one of the best people handlers in history.

Kristen: Yeah, I remember that from somewhere. He talks about Lincoln a lot,

Mike: Talks about Lincoln a lot. And there's some, and

Kristen: Teddy Roosevelt, ~ALS~ also very frequent appearance.~ Um, ~But yeah. But principle number one is don't criticize, condemn or complain. ~Oh.~

Mike: ~Oh.~ Period. 

Kristen: Period. Period.

~So.~

Mike: For analytical people, this is very challenging. 

Kristen: Oh, for [00:15:00] sure. Yeah. Well, a lot of this is challenging.

Mike: Yeah. We're programmed to like break things apart and we can look for the errors.

Kristen: ~I mean, ~there are reasons why Yeah. ~This, ~this came out in the thirties and it's all, it's stuff we're everybody's still working on. ~Right. ~Some of 'em more than another is depending on the person, but yeah, it's not ~ne it's not~ necessarily our instinctive reactions. So chapter two, The Big Secret of Dealing with People and he says there's only one way to get anybody to do anything by making them want to do it. 

Mike: Oh,~ it's,~ it's, that sums up all of leadership.

Kristen: Seriously. You can, it does. 

Mike: can finish the conversation. That is the hard and fast truth. It is like, look,~ and,~ and all of history is replete with the failures of religions and governments and ideologies and cults that try and force people into a way of thinking or action that does not come from within.

~Be it, you know, I won't break apart all the religions because I'm not trying to get picked up by ice. Um, but you can probably take that out. Uh, you probably take that out. Probably take that out. But, but, um, you know, ~Look at, in the, at [00:16:00] the time,~ right, uh, ~prohibition, right? ~You outlawed, ~You outlawed alcohol, people still drank 'cause they wanted to drink.

Now, nowadays, some drugs are legal, some drugs are, it doesn't stop anybody. And in fact, like making alcohol illegal had a different reaction. ~It, ~It, it gave organized crime a forever foothold in the United States. And it exists today. You can make cocaine illegal, but what do you get? You get narcos, you get, ~you know, the, the, ~the Colombian car.

So you can't force anybody to do anything. Only for a very short time and only while you're watching them.

Kristen: Yeah, absolutely. And he says,~ we,~ we all have a desire for a feeling of importance. This is ~the one chief distinguishing difference between, or~ one of the chief distinguishing differences between humans and animals.

Mike: Again, you can end the teachings right here, 

Kristen: Yeah. When I particularly like this, like how you get your feeling of importance determines your character.

Mike: Sure. ~You know, uh,~

Kristen: What are you willing to 

Mike: ~Well,~

And ~you know, ~I get my feeling of importance from ~kind of ~pleasing people ~Right. ~From serving people.

~When, ~When I make someone [00:17:00] happy, that gives me a sense of importance.

~And, ~And that's my ego too.

Kristen: Oh yeah.

Mike: ~You know, ~And I'm aware of that. Like I've had many philosophical discussions with people who say there's no such thing as selflessness. ~You know, ~That Mother Teresa and all the Buddhists, that they get some sort of feeling of importance from helping others and okay, that might be true, but that I still think is better than getting your sense of importance from beating or conquering or dominating other people.

Kristen: Right? Yeah, absolutely.

Mike: I could be wrong. I might be wrong. It's still ego, but you know,

~I ~I, don't get my sense of importance from stepping on other people's faces.

Kristen: Exactly. And a lot of people

Mike: A lot of people do. And in the martial arts too, ~you know, ~they talk about jiujitsu ~like, ~oh, it's a great humbling, maybe.

But if you happen to have a big ego and you wind up also being very good at it through either, ~you know, ~discipline ~or, ~or ~you, ~you have to be, you have to have some talents and ~you, you know, ~you can just, ~that's a,~ I've seen it a [00:18:00] lot. You know, they get off on it. 

Kristen: Yeah.

For sure.~ And, ~And Charles Schwab is another one of the common appearances in this book. ~Um, ~But he was the first, or at least one of the first Americans to be paid a salary of more than a million dollars a year in 1921, which I looked up just now. I think it's about 18 million.

Mike: Yeah. Oh, it's probably more than, there was a funny quote in there. He, I don't know, I think he got to interview him at one point, and Dale asked Charles Schwab like, how did you command such a salary?

And Charles went hard work, and Dale's like, don't be funny. And I was like, thank you for ~like, ~telling the truth that hard work is not necessarily in and of itself how you get success.

Kristen: Well he ultimately credited it to his ability to dealing with, to his, dealing with people. His ability to deal with people. Yeah. I said

Mike: Be hearty in your approbations and lavish in your [00:19:00] 

Kristen: Yeah. He said the best way to develop the best in a person is by appreciation and encouragement.

Nothing kills the ambitions of a person like criticism from superiors. 

Mike: That's so true. He said,~ I,~ I'm loathed to criticize, but I say all the good, I see.

Kristen: ~Mm-hmm. ~Yeah.

Mike: And you were worried that I wasn't gonna read this book to do this.

Kristen: You still like, have you remember

Mike: I was like, don't worry. I was like, don't worry.

Kristen: I was like, I'll do the notes. 'cause it's been a bit since I read it, so.

Yeah. 

Mike: But ~there's some, ~there's some old school language for you too, approbations.

Kristen: Oh yeah, there's some.

Mike: I love it there. I love it.

Kristen: Old school language in here. ~Um, ~Still ~it's, ~it's funny. But yeah. He also points out ~the, ~the difference between appreciation and flattery, which is important, and this comes back later in the book too.

Flattery is insincere, selfish and condemned. ~Well, ~Appreciation is sincere from the heart, selfish and admired. So people want appreciation. They don't want flattery.

Mike: That's [00:20:00] challenging. ~You know, ~It is challenging, but I think as a leader, at some point you'll very quickly realize you really need other people to be successful in your roles. And it can be a little selfish, but you can say all the good that you see because they're helping you accomplish your very complicated job.

And it's ~like, ~thank you for doing that. ~ You know, ~People will feel ~that ~that is not empty, that is not everybody likes that. Somewhere in here he says the sweetest sound to any person is their own name.

Kristen: Yep. He gets into that later on. That

Mike: true. 

Kristen: So true.

so true.

So yeah, principle number two, give honest and sincere appreciation. And then the third and final chapter of this part, these are kinda like the fundamental principles. ~Um, ~It's a very long chapter title. He Who can Do This has The whole World with him. He who Cannot Walks A Lonely Way. You know,~ it's, ~it's a little dramatic

Mike: dramatic. It's a little bit vocal,

Yeah. But, um, well, it's 1936.

Kristen: Yes, [00:21:00] but the only way to influence people is to talk about what they want, not what you want, and show them how to get it.

And every act you've performed since the day you were born was because you wanted something,

Mike: Yeah.

Kristen: which is so true.

I mean, we go to this in improv, it's like a way ~to get, like,~ to increase the stakes in a scene ~and make it like,~ and just make it better, is to like, want something. So ~that is, ~that is the source of human behavior. And ~he, ~he talks about his own story when he was running a ballroom in a hotel for lectures, and they all of a sudden increased the rent by three times.

And he, instead of just like arguing with him about this. Being Dale Carnegie, he wrote them a pros and cons list of doing this. And in the cons, he included not only the loss in revenue from all of his business, but also he pointed out that the people his lectures attracted were in the hotel's target market. And they only increased it [00:22:00] 50% instead of like 300 as a result of that.

~Um, ~He also quotes Henry Ford, if there's any one secret of success, it lies in the ability to get the other person's point of view and see things from that person's angle as well as from your own. And the best way to motivate someone to do something for you is to show them how it would benefit them as well. So, very true.

Mike: ~I, ~I don't know if Jocko's read this book, but a lot of that stuff has found its way into like modern, the military talk that he, ~you know, ~he explains things to his team, right? Like he wants them to understand the big picture. He wants to understand, he wants them to understand their part in it.

Kristen: He's become like core principles of selling too. Absolutely. So yeah, principle number three, some old timey language

Mike: Arouse in the other person an eager want

Yes. 

Kristen: Yes.

Yes. Just rolls off the tongue and

Mike: right off the time.

Yeah.

It's like a [00:23:00] dust bowl kind of thing going on 

Kristen: Yes.

So that is part one. Part two is six ways to make people like you. So there's another six chapters and six principles that go with them ~in this chapter,~ in this part. So chapter one, Do This and You'll Be Welcome Anywhere. He says you can make more friends in two months by becoming interested in people than you can in two years by trying to get people interested in you.

Mike: Yeah. 

Kristen: And one can win the attention, time and cooperation of even the most sought after people by becoming genuinely interested in that.

Mike: Even the famous are moved by true. 

Kristen: Yeah. Well

Mike: I don't wanna say flattery, but like

Kristen: Appreciation versus flattery. To some, it's like the sincerity aspect, right? ~Like, ~People will always want something from them.

So if you show actual genuine interest, it stands out. ~ Um,~

Mike: This is dating advice I got too. It's like, don't talk, just ask girls questions. 

Kristen: Oh 

Mike: No one's, ever come away [00:24:00] from a date going. ~He, ~He, she let me talk about myself too much.

Kristen: For sure.

Mike: No one's said that, ever.

Kristen: Yeah. I think I, I've noted that in places too.

I'm like, this is also totally dating advice, timeless dating advice

Yeah. Yeah.

Mike: And influence people. 

Kristen: Yeah.

~Um, ~And he talks about how he would get like very prominent people like FDR to come speak for his students by writing them letters of deep admiration and also just acknowledging they didn't have time to create a whole lecture.

So he would attach a list of questions about them and their methods of work that they could answer as part of the lecture. Super smart on many levels.

~Um, ~But yeah, all of us like people who admire us, this is a thing. And he recommends finding out people's birthdays and remembering them.

Mike: He talked about one guy, one politic, I can't remember who it was. I. But it was like rumored, he could remember like 10,000 people's 

Kristen: Mm-hmm. 

Mike: And [00:25:00] then he asked him, he is like, no, it's 50,000.

Kristen: ~Mm. ~Yeah. Yep.

Mike: I ~kind of ~remember Napoleon was ~sort of ~famous for that.

Kristen: Yeah. He references Napoleon a lot this book too.

Mike: Well, he was very close to that time period. Oh

Kristen: God. Oh yes. History.

Mike: No, he wasn't, it was 

Kristen: No, it ~wasn't, ~wasn't quite Yes.

Mike: it wasn't quite, But he was probably

Kristen: But a lot closer than we

Mike: Yeah. He was probably more famous in that day than he is now. The Ridley Scott debacle notwithstanding.

Kristen: But yeah, I guess I even noted in my notes for this chapter, I'm like, this reminds me of my approach when I was dating was just taking genuine interest in people and being like,

Mike: Everybody loves to talk about themselves.

Kristen: Yeah. Well, and I figured ~I, you know, ~like I genuinely like learning about people. I was like, I can talk to anybody for 45 Pretty much. So I, and just by being genuinely interested in them, so that was ~kind of ~my approach definitely applies.~ Um, ~So principle one is become [00:26:00] genuinely interested in other people.

Mike: ~Hmm. ~Don't underestimate the impact of a smile. I ha I had someone who I later probably did not think this of me, but they said I had resting happy face.

Kristen: Oh,

Mike: Aw, I know. And then

Kristen: That's a adorable 

Mike: It is. And then 86 them

Kristen: What

Mike: What I like. But that's in, that was indirect too. Like they were doing something not right. Group was doing something really bad ~and, ~and ~you know, ~we won't go into details for legal reasons, ~but you know, ~they did not, I don't think they saw that coming. They saw me as, oh, he is very happy. He's probably a simpleton and they found out different, ~you know, ~but ~that's, ~that's 

Kristen: Okay.

So that was flattery.

Mike: I, no, I think they were they appreciation. Well, they probably appreciated that. They're like, oh, here's somebody happy that we can work with. Yeah.

Kristen: But they're also like, how can I use this?

Mike: ~Kind of ~Yeah. And then I was like, okay. ~ you, ~you can, I am, because I will tell you, I think I read this book [00:27:00] really at one point when I was with Keno ~and, ~and I saw so many of the things

Kristen: That you should explain what, who 

Mike: is? Well, Keno was the general,~ well,~ I, I mean if you've, okay. I don't know if

Kristen: Not everybody's listened all

Mike: way. Okay. ~Keno ~Keno is an amazing person. He is. He was the general manager of ~the, ~the Hyatt that I worked at when I moved to San Francisco, I was his a GM assistant general manager.

Imagine, ~you know, ~he's the general I'm the colonel, right. And so I'm carrying out his orders and whatever, but it, ~you know, ~Keno was, I learned so much from him. And one of the things I learned was that you don't have to be an autocratic kind of, ~you know, ~traditional style leader to get really good results. He was very nice to everybody.

He was very friendly. He was gregarious. He was outgoing. He did tell me he wasn't like that before Covid, like ~he was, ~he was like, just stay in his office and, old school observer. ~So, ~But so many of the principles in Boundaries for leaders and this book I found him doing naturally. And I know he didn't read these books a hundred percent.

I don't know the man's ever read a leadership book, [00:28:00] but ~he, ~he, it just, in his character, he's developed these, a lot of these techniques,~ um, and. You know, ~and a lot, the indirect approach, the really saying nice, ~you know, he, he would, ~he would praise lots and lots of people and he would somehow still manage to tell you what you were doing wrong without it coming out like that.

~he got, he's still getting, you know, I don't know how many times since I met, you know, ~He's at the top of his field,~ um,~ and he's doing it without an iron fist. ~Mm-hmm. You know, ~he, yeah. ~So, uh, I mean, ~There's a Chinese saying, steel wrapped in silk. That's what they call like Qigong Tai Chi practices.

Like your body doesn't get hard in the way that like Bruce Lee looks or military but inside the bones get ~very, ~very strong. The internal stuff and you can break bricks and things like that. That's, ~you know, ~that's not from just the hardening of ~the, ~the outer side. ~It's, ~It's the inside that becomes supernaturally strong

Steel wrapped in silk.

Kristen: That gets into ~the, a simple~ chapter two, A Simple Way to Make a Good First Impression, [00:29:00] which is really talking about smiling.

The principle for this chapter is Smile,~ um,~ and he talks about how the effect of a smile is powerful even when it's unseen. And this I've heard the advice so many times, like when you're on the phone, smile.

Mike: Oh, we say that. Yeah. You can hear a smile

Kristen: your smile comes through your voice. It does, It does. I also like this, you must have a good time meeting people if you expect them to have a good time meeting you. And he also says, if you don't feel like smiling, just force yourself to smile first.

Mike: I don't agree with that, but

Kristen: I do actually. 'Cause ~it does, ~it does influence your mood.

Mike: Well, I think you can choose who is it? ~Um, the best decision Um, ~I think it was like Voltaire who said It was Voltaire. Yes. Okay. So the most important decision you will ever make is to be in a good mood.

And there was a point in my life when I, and ~you know, ~I suffered from depression and I had a lot of different trauma and things like that. And there was many times that I could not make that choice. [00:30:00] But at some point in my late forties, I started being able to make that choice. And I think it was again, at the Hyatt and Keno kind of helped me go from being a student of leadership to an actual leader where I would put aside all the details and come in with a very positive forward moving attitude because I knew everybody else needed to see that. And I would get my coffee and I six espresso and I would come in and I would just go around and, ~you know, ~bulk b buff people up or ~you know, ~whatever. And ~like, ~and that not my normal style at all, but there is a moment in your, you, you can start to choose that.

Yep.

And that I agree. So that, ~that you have, I don't think,~ I don't wanna fake a smile, but there's a,~ um,~ there's a choice there.

Kristen: Yeah. I mean I do think there's, I don't know it off the top of my, and Dale Carnegie certainly didn't have it at this point. I think there is some science backing up

Mike: there. Is smile like Sure.

Smiling 

Kristen: and the effect on your mood.

But 

Mike: ~I'm a, ~I'm a cancer we don't do that. ~Well, you know, ~[00:31:00] like. Where's ~that, ~that meme with the cat and it's ~like, ~I hate this, I hate everyone.

This is annoying. I hope I'm hiding it well, and the face is like, scrunched up. ~We gotta put that on our Instagram. Um, ~I can't, I personally can't do that. I have to get into that actual frame of mind, but for sure. Yeah, for sure.

Kristen: Yeah. I mean basically it comes down to act as if you are already happy and that will tend to make you happy.

And this, ~you know, ~along the same topic, everyone in the world is seeking happiness and there is one sure way to find it. By controlling your own thoughts. Happiness depends on inner conditions, not outward ones. 

Mike: I don't agree with the word control. I think it's a deeper process than controlling.

Kristen: Yeah. I maybe control isn't right, but still this is pretty forward thinking

Mike: No, a hundred percent. ~I, I'm, ~I'm splitting hairs here.

Kristen: I'm

~I mean, ~There's more stuff to split hairs about get deeper in,~ but,~ but it's generally, I feel

Mike: The concept, the concepts are so good.

Kristen: [00:32:00] Yeah.

~Um, ~Chapter Three, if You Don't Do this, you are headed for Trouble. His chapter titles are so funny. They're very like, they're like warnings. but,~ um,~ he talks about how Jim Farley, who was FDR R'S campaign manager,~ um,~

Mike: he, that's the guy with the 50,000

Kristen: This is the one he, yeah. And he like built an entire system for remembering names. Yeah. And he would always,~ like,~ he would meet people on the campaign trail and just always follow up with them with personal letters, which is ~kind of ~crazy

Mike: Well, we do that in, in my business now after someone tours. Well, she better be, she's supposed to write people, like, I mean,

Kristen: I mean, yeah, yeah.

Mike: A lot of work, but she'll write out like a handwritten thank you note. It's so meaningful.

Kristen: Yeah, for sure.

Mike: Or when you check into a hotel, if you're a VIP, you'll get a handwritten note from GM or,~ thanks,~ thanks for staying with us, or the whole team will thank you for being being here. Even in, ~you know, ~we have a guest suite. We had a VIP staying [00:33:00] sales guy, and I put his name on the door. I was like, welcome Tim. And he noticed all of When I interviewed for this job in the park, the parking is a disaster, but I had my own spot. They told me which spot.

And there was a sign that said Michael Sharkey in the spot. Yes. And I was like, that is a nice touch.

Kristen: That goes a long

Mike: That goes a long way. It, you know it,~ and,~ and then you forgive mistakes that maybe you wouldn't, ~you know, ~maybe forgive. It's

Kristen: like mm-hmm.

Oh, yeah. Well, he's, the average person is more interested in their own name than in all the other names on Earth put together.

Mike: He said something in there about like, you're more interested in your own toothache than you are about like a famine

Kristen: Uhhuh another

Mike: part of the world. And I was like, that is unfortunately

Kristen: Unfortunately true. Also a little like liberating when you figure it out because you realize that not everybody is,~ uh,~ paying attention to things about you, like you are.

Mike: Oh, they're not

Kristen: all. They're not.

Mike: you're, I'm so worried about how my hair is sitting and they're [00:34:00] not

Kristen: absorbed. Yeah. No. Yeah. Nobody

Mike: Nobody cares. Nobody cares. ~you're ~

Kristen: Make Yep. But kind of back to naming names specifically, he says, remember somebody's name and say, write it accurately. And you have delivered a very effective compliment, which is an interesting way to put it.

Forget it or misspell it and you have placed yourself ~as a,~ at a sharp disadvantage.

Mike: That was so smart. And I, ~you know, ~I'm in businesses where there's a lot of different ethnicities and I will ask people, I'll lower, I'll, first of all, I'll hunch over a little bit to lower myself and I'll be like, that's an interesting name.

~How do you, ~How do you spell that?

Kristen: Yeah, that's so smart.

Mike: smart. ~And, ~And people Will usually, and there used to being mispronounced ~or, ~or ~like ~there's a whole, like probably Instagram handle of Starbucks cups that gone wrong, ~you know? ~Yeah. But if you ask them,~ how,~ how do you spell that? Where, ~you know, ~can you tell me about that?

~They, ~they, know. I think that's, people appreciate that. 

Kristen: For sure. Yeah, no, this is something I've always been very intentional about spelling people's names correctly. It's something I [00:35:00] just, I triple check on emails in general. ~Um, ~But I have deep insecurities around remembering people's names. I think it's an partly an auditory processor thing from A DHD,

Mike: I remember what you want to drink. Like I can tell you a decade later, what a regular guest at a restaurant, ~like ~if they liked iced tea or they wanted lemon in the water, or did they not want orange things on their plate? Or did they not eat salt? But sometimes I forget names.

Kristen: Yeah,~ it's,~ it's hard. I have to be extremely intentional about it, and ~it's, it's still, ~it's still a challenge for me,

Mike: But I, sincerity goes a long way.

Kristen: It does, yes. ~Yeah, ~yeah.

Mike: I'm so sorry. I'm an idiot. Please, can you tell me your name one

Kristen: more time? Yeah, 

Mike: Yeah, we get that in Juujitsu. It's a lot, it's very, ~you know, you, ~you're trying to kill each other and ~you forget who you, you know, ~you can go weeks and months and you're rolling with people and it's I'm so sorry.

I don't remember your name. I know you like to Kimura the shit outta me, but

Kristen: like

Mike: is it Bob Robert? Fucking don't remember. Yeah. Struggle is real.

Kristen: I also [00:36:00] thought it was interesting. He is, he's talked about, like, one of Andrew Carnegie's business secrets was he would name things after the people he wanted to influence or offer to name something after them if they wanted their support.

Mike: Oh, God. Where he talks about giving people a standard to live up to that is, or it's ~kind of ~this ~like, ~it's one of the most genius techniques of all 

Kristen: time.

It's super smart. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike: ~you, I, you know, we're so, ~We're in a society where everybody is just ripping each other for the smallest offenses or the smallest inequities, and instead give people a reputation to live up to, and they will live up to it.

Kristen: Yep.

Mike: ~I, ~I, and Keno did that to me. He's ~like, ~I know you're gonna get this. I know you'll figure that out.

What are you talking ~I, you,~ you have more confidence in me than I have. And I was like, you know what, maybe he's right. And figured stuff out.

Kristen: Yeah. And he lists like multiple leaders, FDR, Andrew Carnegie, and others who [00:37:00] made a point at remembering the names of frontline workers, mechanics, like everybody they encountered and how important it is.

So ~the, ~the principle number three for this, you said already earlier, is ~like, ~remember that a person's name is to that person the sweetest and most important sound in any language.

Mike: So like, it's so underestimated.

Kristen: It's true. Yeah. Yeah.~ Um, ~So chapter four, an easy way to become a good Conversationalist, and I love this chapter, but many people fail to make a favorable impression because they don't listen attentively.

They're too concerned with what they're going to say next. This is very in line with the work I do. ~Um, ~And he says,~ if,~ if you wanna make people shun you ~a good, ~a good recipe for that is never listen to anyone for long, talk incessantly about yourself and interrupt the person in the middle of a sentence to share your idea.

Mike: Ouch.

Kristen: ~To, ~To be interesting, be [00:38:00] interested. And ~I, ~I really love this. ~I, ~I find it interesting that, ~you know, ~I do a lot of like talks and workshops and stuff and ~the. ~of the concepts I share, one of the ones that gets the most feedback that people will come up to and me and talk about it with me is the three levels of listening, which I've talked about on this podcast before.

~Um, ~I can link to maybe one of those episodes. But,~ um, it, ~it's always just struck me that it's such a simple thing. ~You know, ~Dale Carnegie was writing about it like 90 years ago, but it's still, so it's something we all struggle with and takes a lot of conscious effort. So ~he, ~he also recommends like asking questions the other person will enjoy answering, encourage them to talk about themselves and their accomplishments. And again, this is kind of back to the what we said under names. The people you're talking to are a hundred times more interested in themselves and their wants and problems than they are in you and your problems. A hundred times 

Mike: Yeah, [00:39:00] They're more,~ well,~ more inter you're more interested in your own toothache than you are, ~you know, ~a famine somewhere else in the world. Oh, it's rough to admit, but it's true man.

Yeah. Uh, 

Kristen: So principle number four is be a good listener, encourage others to talk about themselves. Also, great dating advice like much of this. So two more chapters in this part.

~Um,~

again, 

Mike: I like how at the end he has one like summation of the principle.

Kristen: Yeah, I like it. I love it. My brain loves it.

Mike: Your brain loves it. Your brain is so interesting.

Kristen: Um,

Mike: Like a separate person.

Has a will of its own.

Kristen: Something like that. 

Mike: You can, it's like a cat.

You can herd it carefully ~and, ~and somewhat unsuccessfully, but you can't control it.

Kristen: So, yeah. So finishing up the six ways to get people to like you. So chapter five of this is How to Interest People and, ~you know, ~Teddy [00:40:00] Roosevelt, a frequent appearance in this book. ~Um, ~He, whenever he expected a visitor, he would stay up late the night before reading up on a subject that he knew his guest was most interested in.

He says the royal road to a person's heart is to talk about the things he or she treasures most. And when you think of really great conversationalists, you enjoy their company because they talk in terms of your interest, in your opinions. So that's the principle from us is talk in terms of the other person's interests.

You

Mike: Has some good letters with like a shipping company and ~you know, ~the way ~they're, ~they're like, you need to get your trucks here on 

Kristen: ~Mm-hmm.~

Mike: ~mm-hmm. Like, you know, ~and nobody listens. But when they puts it in terms of how it will benefit them, it's ~like, ~if your trucks get here earlier, we're gonna be able to pay more attention to them.

You're gonna get your freight unloaded quicker within one day and not wait two days. ~You know, ~He does the same thing when he was talking to the hotel. ~Like, ~He gives a whole list. ~Like, ~Here are the benefits that will accrue to you if you,~ uh,~ if you raise my rent three times, he's like, first of all, [00:41:00] you'll be able to collect more rent because I can't pay it.

And you, that will free up the ballroom. ~What?~

Kristen: ~Stop touching your mic. Yeah.~

~That ~

Mike: ~Sorry. That picks up.~

Kristen: ~Are you done?~

Mike: ~That was a little rude.~

Kristen: ~No, no. I just know, I, I I just know it's gonna come out and like Well, you're, you're saying important things, but~

Mike: ~yeah, you're obviously, I'm done.~

Kristen: ~I~

Mike: ~The, are you done? Was a little rude.~

~Okay. Um.~

Kristen: ~with the hotel pros~

Mike: ~Yeah. He talks about the hotel and he's like, you know, one of the benefits that will accrue to you if you raise my rent is that you will have the ballroom free to rent it to higher paying, you know, guests because I won't be able to pay that ~

Kristen: ~yeah. Yep. ~

Mike: ~way to like, you know, ~This is actually, it's a benefit to you.

And that's like a whole department of revenue management. We're raising it to the point that ~we're, ~we're gonna reduce our occupancy but the people staying are gonna pay more. Okay. If that's your plan, good plan.~ You know, ~It's always in, put it into people's terms that,~ uh,~ takes into account their position and perspective.

Kristen: Yep. And this is true of so many things.

It's like, rather than telling your sob story or ~like ~making it all about how this impacts you, like put it in terms of how it will benefit them. In general when you want something from somebody. Oh.~ Um, ~And then lastly in this section, chapter six, How to Make People Like You Instantly. And he says there's one all important law of human conduct. Always make the other person feel important. And ~this, ~this is kind of re echoing some of the stuff he talked about in the first section, but he talks a [00:42:00] lot about the Golden Rule in this chapter. ~Um, ~I prefer the Platinum Rule, which,~ uh,~ Amira Barger talked about on our interview with her. So you can check that out if you wanna hear more, but treating others the way they want to be treated.

I

Mike: I don't remember the platinum role. I was probably listening to respond rather than listening to listen.

Kristen: Well, you know, we've done a lot of interviews, but,~ uh,~ that'll, that stuck with me versus, as opposed to the Golden Rule of treat people as the way you wanna be treated.

Mike: I, I think that's changed during my lifetime when I was entering the business world. It was like, treat everyone the same, treat people the way you would wanna be treated. And now it's ~like, ~not everybody wants to be treated like you. They might want something completely different. ~ Uh, you know, you gotta find out how they want to be~

~Well, it's, it's, we feed her four times a day. It's odds are that she's gonna get food at the time that we're doing this.~

Kristen: ~she is.~

~America. ~

Mike: ~Miss America. Yeah. Uh, to be a cat in America. What is the joke? Like the life, the dr. The dream, the life we all dream of is to be the golden retriever of a particularly upper middle class family.~

~Oh, That~

~guy has the life. He's gonna the park all the time. They're going camping. He eats really well. Nobody's particularly stressed out. ~

Kristen: ~Yep. Yep. ~

Mike: ~Ugh. Are we waiting for her to,~

Kristen: ~Yeah. It's too loud. ~

Mike: ~it's too loud Thank you for apologizing. I understand that we need to say stumbled on track.~

Kristen: ~Well, that wasn't even, that wasn't, wasn't even just like, no, I wanna hear what you're saying, but I know it's gonna get~

Mike: ~oh, okay.~

Kristen: ~screwed up. Eat~

~faster. You fat. ~

Mike: ~Wow. ~

Kristen: ~you.~

Mike: ~She's not a insulted.~

~And to and door?~

Kristen: ~and no.~

Mike: ~Oh my God. Jesus. Why are you being so slow right now?~

~Usually you~

~inhale your food could also pick it up ~

Kristen: ~I thought about that, but at this point it's ~

Mike: ~yeah, it's she's just driving. ~

Kristen: ~No. almost Great. is done. it too loud outside? Is it too loud Well, come So it's trying to figure out, I~

~was done a little Oh my God. Okay,~

~let's Get~

~back at it. Um,~

Yeah. So then ~he, ~he recommends using like little phrases like, I'm sorry to trouble you. Would you be so kind as to, would you mind, these, like he says, these oil, the cogs of the monotonous grind of everyday

Mike: That's so true.

Kristen: ~And then~ He also said like [00:43:00] almost all the people you meet feel they're superior to you in some way.

And a sure path to their hearts is to let them realize in some subtle way that you recognize their importance sincerely. No matter how important someone is, no one is immune to the pleasure of someone taking interest in you as a person.

Mike: That's genius.

Kristen: Yeah. ~I mean, yeah. ~So the principle from this is make the other person feel important and do it sincerely. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Kristen: The sincerity is really emphasized throughout this book and even says towards the end of it, he's like, all of these principles only work if you're doing them genuinely. Which, ~you know, ~may not always be true, but ~um, ~I think the intention is there.

So that's part two. So part three is How to Win People to your Way Of Thinking. So now we're getting into ~like ~the influence part of So chapter one, You Can't Win An Argument. If you lose.

Mike: Facebook says you're wrong.

Kristen: ~Uh, ~Does it though, [00:44:00] because is anybody winning those comment threads?

Mike: I don't know, man. It's very scary.

It's very, very demoralizing this stuff nowadays.

Kristen: ~I mean ~This is ~like, ~people need to read this clearly

Mike: people need to read something other than, ~you know, ~Fox News or CNN

Kristen: Yeah.

Mike: ~up, ~Pick up a good book,

Kristen: TikTok, social media, you know? Geez.

Mike: Geez.

Kristen: ~Um, ~But yeah, he says if you lose an argument, you lose it. If you win it, you also lose it.

Mike: We saw that in,~ uh,~ Unreasonable Hospitality too, where he, the, he, the guy ordered a medium rare steak, and the waiter's like, it is medium rare. You're right, but you're wrong because now ~you've, ~you've lost that customer or you've

Kristen: him. Yeah. You've made the person other person feel inferior. You've hurt their pride. Something like

Mike: He has a good example. He's at the party, he's at a cocktail party and he corrects somebody who thinks something is from the Bible, and it's not from the Bible, it's from Shakespeare. And [00:45:00] Dale corrects him. Oh no, that's from, and ~you know, ~his friend kicks him under the table and his friend is a Shakespeare expert, so he doesn't understand.

And later he is like, okay, so you won ~that, ~that argument. You were right, but did you further your cause of,~ know,~ winning friends and influencing people? No, you didn't. ~You, you, ~You now you made an enemy. Yeah. Or ~you, you, ~you one-upped that guy. Congratulations. Nobody's keeping score.

Kristen: Yep. Yeah. No, I mean, I think in Unreasonable Hospitality it's do you wanna be right or do you wanna win? I. I've also heard, do you want

Mike: oh, I say that all the time.

Kristen: Yeah. Or do you wanna be writer or do you wanna be married is another one I hear.

Mike: Ouch. Um, okay. That's aggressive. We'll talk later.

Kristen: I mean, I'm probably the most guilty of that, so. Oh,

Mike: Oh, you are, you're so stubborn. It was like two years in until I got you to admit that you were stubborn.

Kristen: Really?

Mike: God, yes. don't, you do. I don't know if [00:46:00] you do see yourself as stubborn, but

Kristen: No, no. I totally know.

I'm 

Mike: Oh, you do. ~You were so, ~You were so stubborn that you wouldn't admit

Kristen: that you stubborn.

Mike: Mom. Not

Kristen: in that particular

Mike: Brun is, it wasn't until I started to observe, I love you Mama Brun, until I started to observe your mom.

And I was like, oh yeah. It's a stubborn thing in their family, and they don't even know they're doing it.

Kristen: You never met my maternal grandmother, but she, yes, it all makes sense. But yes. So ~this is, ~this is all true. ~Um, I like, ~I like this quote too. A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

Mike: Back to cannot control anyone at all.

Kristen: Yep.

Mike: Yeah. You can lead them, but you can't force them. At least not for God, if we could learn one lesson as a people as you met, like that would be it.

Just ~well, ~just ~that, ~that saying ~like, ~you cannot force anyone to do anything. You can only lead them to do what they want to do. 

Kristen: [00:47:00] Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mike: And to get them to want to do it, you must show them why it is in their best interests. Not because,~ and,~ and this is why ~like ~so much, there's ~like ~all this self-righteousness and false piety and everybody, ~you know, ~everybody's God is fighting another God.

Really, really? You think you're so right. You're willing to go to war with somebody else who also Yeah. Apparently we are.

Kristen: ~um, ~Yeah. Plenty of historical examples of that

Mike: Oh my God.

Kristen: And not so historical examples.

Mike: Don't get it. Yeah. Don't get it.

Kristen: ~No, I mean, I think this,~ You know, just to bring it back to the cats, since they refuse to make appearances ~these, ~these days, I remember you telling me early on, you're like, you can't force them to do anything, but you can influence them.

You can influence 

Mike: their behavior.

Kristen: It's much like people and subtly. Yeah. 

Mike: And only if they ~kind of ~want to,

Kristen: But they still have to kinda wanna do it. Yeah. Yeah.~ Um, ~He also prints 

Mike: a, 10 pound creature that can ruin your life. 

Kristen: Yeah, absolutely. Very effectively. ~So. Well,~

Mike: ~well, ~Scream, yell all you [00:48:00] want. ~Blow your brain, blow your head, explode your skull. ~Cannot make them do what you want. 

Kristen: They are stubborn creatures ~.. ~

Mike: ~Maybe take that out. I wasn't trying to say blow your brains out. Like it came out wrong.~

Kristen: ~yeah. Okay.~

~Um, yeah,~ The other thing ~he, ~he puts in this chapter,~ he,~ he prints ~this, ~this is from an article he pulled them from, but I actually like it.

It's like how to keep a disagreement from turning into an argument. ~So, ~Welcome the disagreement, like disagreement is not inherently bad. Distrust your first impression. 'cause our first response is usually gonna be defensive. Control your temper. I like this. You can measure the size of a person by what makes them angry,~ kind of.~

Yeah.~ Um, ~Listen first and let them finish. Try to build bridges of understanding.

Look for areas of agreement. Be honest. Look for areas where you can admit error and say so. Promise to think over your opponent's ideas and study them carefully and mean it. Thank your opponents sincerely for their interest and postpone action to give both sides time to think through the [00:49:00] problem. Oh yeah. I like these. And the principle for this is the only way to get the best of an argument is to avoid it.

~Oh,~

So chapter two, A Sure Way of Making enemies And How to avoid it. So it says, when you think someone is wrong, never start with, I'm going to prove this to you. So it's ~kind of ~the equivalent of saying you're smarter than them, and it just instinctively makes someone battle with you before you even start talking.

If you're going to prove anything, don't let them know it. Do it so subtly that no one will feel you're doing it. And I think this is part of this where,~ um, people, ~people can kind of use this for evil if they're really good at it, but,

Mike: Well~ ,~

Kristen: but

Mike: Leadership and manipulation are very similar. Yeah. It's the intention and the purpose.

Kristen: That's true of many of the principles in this, but,~ um,~ but if a person makes a statement you think or know is wrong, he says, start with, I thought otherwise, but I may be wrong. I frequently am.

Mike: I love that. ~I, ~I use that. I might be wrong. I'm often wrong.[00:50:00] 

Kristen: I do, I use, I try to use that too. 'cause ~it's, ~it's a, it's, you're not saying ~like, ~oh, I am wrong, but you're saying I might, I could be wrong, I might be wrong.

Mike: kind of disarming too.

Kristen: Mm-hmm.

Mike: Everybody thinks, ~you know, ~if you watch the Facebook comments, it's ~like, ~I'm right. A hundred percent right. My view is right. My people are the people that share my view are Right. ~And, ~And everyone else is completely wrong. Well, there's no nuance. There's no gray.

It's all black and white. Well, okay. Probably not, but you know.

Kristen: Yep.

Mike: I might be wrong. I frequently am.

Kristen: Yeah. You'll never get into trouble by admitting that you may be wrong.

Mike: Chris Voss had that too. ~Right. ~And his, he is like Ahma when ~he, ~he went to Canada illegally. He's like, bless me father, for I have sinned.

Kristen: Yeah, there's a lot of ~Chris, ~Voss similarities in here.

Mike: Because Chris is

Kristen: Sure he was influenced by

Mike: I don't know if he read the, who knows, he never mentions it, but like his whole thing is winning friends and influencing people. Yeah. It's all, yeah. Yeah.

Kristen: It's all influence.

Mike: [00:51:00] Tells people, Hey, I'm an asshole.

Okay. I am sorry. I'm a jerk. You know? And, and that's disarming when you start with that, people are like, no, you're not an asshole. Okay.

They'll disagree with you.

Oh, I might, I'm probably coming too strong with this comment. The reaction is, no, that's not too strong. 

Kristen: Yep. And he says Ben Franklin had a rule to avoid directly ~con~ contradicting others.

And he would use language like these are, this gets very old timey, not, I imagine, but I conceive or I apprehend instead of words that show a fixed opinion. Like certainly or undoubtedly.~ Um, ~But yeah, it's ~kind of ~like some language softening. Though. Principle number two is show respect for the other person's opinions and never say you're wrong. 

Mike: ~He, he, ~He tells the story of Lincoln how Lincoln in, in the first part of his life was very,~ um,~ confrontational and he [00:52:00] almost got in a duel. ~Uh,~ And then at some point he had a change of heart. And even though, and ~he, ~he was almost too gentle with the generals of the Civil War who were mostly beyond incompetent.

Kristen: Mm-hmm. 

Mike: Mm-hmm. And ~he allowed them~

~the,~

~I don't know if he'll add them, but he, he, ~he didn't yell and scream ~and, ~and throw things ~in, in a, ~in a Gordon Ramsey kind of way. ~And, ~And is very, he took a very like indirect, soft approach. ~Um, you know Yeah.~ Influenced people in a different way.

Kristen: Yep. So, chapter three, If You're Wrong, Admit It.

Mike: No, I won't.

Kristen: This is something I'm perfect at.

Mike: you're so bad at this, to be honest.

Kristen: I don't wanna be,

Mike: I know, but it's so hard to get ~an, ~an admission of guilt or an apology out of you.

I love you. I don't know why it is so hard. I don't know why,

I know you know.

I know you know,

Kristen: But ~I mean, ~the idea of this is if ~you know, ~you're, if you know you're gonna be rebuked anyway, it's better to beat the [00:53:00] other person to

Mike: it.

For sure.

Kristen: Say all the criticism, you know the other person is thinking and say it before they have a chance to say

Mike: Accusation audit from Never Split The Difference.

Kristen: Yeah. Yeah. I guess I'll put ~like, ~this

Mike: Yeah. Oh, I see. It's very Chris. With one too many S's on

Kristen: Chris's. Oh my God.

Wait, what was this about correcting? And ~you know, ~do you wanna be right or do you

Mike: Wanna be married? Right? ~I dunno. Right now.~

Kristen: ~Wow. ~

Mike: ~Wow. ~

Kristen: ~That was mean.~

Mike: I'm tired. Trying to record after work is not ideal. 

Kristen: I know ~it's not, ~it's not ideal, but I was gone this weekend, so here we are.

Mike: Yeah, with your Broadway extravaganza.

Kristen: I did a Broadway trip with my mom.

Mike: That sounds like the definition of like, purgatory 

Kristen: You're like, wow, that all sounds terrible.

Mike: All sounds awful.

Kristen: Yep. You didn't have to go, so. Yep.

Mike: Hmm.

Kristen: ~Um, ~But yeah, he says there's a certain degree of satisfaction in having the courage to admit one's errors. It not only clears the guilt and defensiveness, but often [00:54:00] helps solve the problem created by the error.

And ~he, ~he notes the proverb: by fighting you never get enough, but by yielding you get more than you expected. . So principle number three, if you are wrong, admit it quickly and emphatically. ~Heavy sigh.~

~Yeah. Well, we're, we're moving.~

~Uh, ~

Mike: ~we, there's so much more here.~

~Uh,~

Kristen: ~this is more than this book than it looks, but, um, ~ So chapter four, A Drop of Honey. This is short and simple. This is ~kind of ~like reiterating back to the first, the very first principle. But,~ um, you know, ~it quotes Abe Lincoln, a drop of honey catches more flies than a gallon of gall.

Mike: I had to look that up. I don't remember what that is. It's disgusting, right?

Kristen: ~I, ~I did. Yeah. I don't know either. But obviously we have a lot of modern variations of this,~ um,~ of this statement. The whole idea, the whole principle for this is begin in a friendly way.

Mike: Begin in a friendly way, is ~very, ~very smart.

That's what I, I mean, Keno is like very friendly.

Yeah. 

Kristen: Yep. And then the next one is interestingly different from what Chris Voss says. This is kind of~ um, ~a more like typical sales script approach. But,~ um,~ chapter five is Get the Other Person Saying [00:55:00] Yes, Yes Immediately. So he says, don't start with the things you differ on. Begin by emphasizing the things in which you agree on.

Get the other person saying yes and try to keep them from saying no. different from

kind 

Mike: I don't know, it's kind of, but it's, it's, yeah.

Kristen: Yeah. ~I mean, ~he, Dale Carnegie says, when you have said no, all your private personality demands that you remain consistent with yourself. So he talks about this Socratic method of ~like ~asking gentle questions with which your opponent will have to agree with until you have an arm full of yeses. Like the Chinese proverb, he who treads softly goes far.

So I, I think this is, ~you know, this is, ~this is a little debatable. I think some of this depends on the situation.~ Um, ~I agree more with Chris Voss that you can't really ~like ~trick somebody into saying yes, by just getting them to say yes to a lot of things. ~Um, ~It has to be related to it, but 

Mike: Yeah, 

Kristen: It's interesting.

~Um, ~so [00:56:00] yeah, so principle five, get the other person saying yes, yes, immediately. And then chapter six says, A Safety Valve for Handling Complaints. So he, most people who are trying to win others to their way of thinking, do too much talking. You should actually let the other people talk themselves out and don't interrupt them.

No matter how much you disagree. Listen patiently with an open mind, be sincere, ask questions and encourage them to express their ideas fully. And

Mike: Yeah, let's see you say that name.

Kristen: Yeah, right. I know there's a couple of French names in here where it was like, Ugh,

Mike: philosopher, Thero

Kristen: I like this quote.

Yeah.

Philosopher La Rochefoucauld, yeah, I can't do any better.

But the quote is, if you want enemies, excel your friends. But if you want friends, let your friends excel you.~ Uh,~ this is, even our friends would much rather talk to us about their achievements than listen to us boast about ours. It's better to be modest and minimize our [00:57:00] achievements. 

Mike: Very un Western.

Kristen: Very, yes. Yeah. So it's basically let the other person do a great deal of the talking. ~Um, ~And I think this, he talks about this in the context of like complaints too. Like give people really a chance to let it all out. ~Like listen~ And listen to them. And then num, chapter seven, how to get cooperation.

So he again, Teddy Roosevelt, he talks about when he was the governor of New York, he kept on terms ~with pol,~ with his political bosses,~ um,~ despite putting through a lot of reforms that they bitterly disliked. And his tactic was like when he would have an important office open up, he would ask them for a recommendation and usually he would reject the first three.

But by the fourth suggestion, they would name somebody he agreed with and then he would appoint this person and then let them take the credit for it.

Mike: Teddy Roosevelt

Kristen: Yep. Yep. Yeah. This is the,

Mike: He was a tough guy too. 

Kristen: Oh yeah.

Mike: I mean, he got shot at [00:58:00] a campaign event and kept finished the event.

Kristen: He also, like his wife and his mom died like on the same day. Yeah.

He went through some stuff.~ Um, ~But yeah. But this principles is let the other person feel that the idea is theirs.

Mike: Which is genius if you know how to 

Kristen: do

it. If you know how to do it. Yeah. And this doesn't really get into how do you do that? Yeah. 

Mike: That's a whole probably 

Kristen: books 

Mike: I need to read

Kristen: That there's an art.

I need to read it as well. ~Um, ~Yeah.

But the next one is A Formula That will Work Wonders for You. It says there is a reason why the other person thinks and acts as they do ferret out that reason. And you have the key to their actions and maybe to their personality. And try to honestly put yourself in their place.

Like, how would I feel if I were in their shoes?

Mike: Yeah. Lincoln taught, his wife is like condemning the Southerners and Lincoln said something like, [00:59:00] don't condemn them. ~We are,~ They are exactly what we would be if we grew up in similar circumstances. I think that's very profound. He's not agreeing with their position.

He knows that ~they're, ~they're, you know,~ But,~

Kristen: But understand how

Mike: How they got there ~and, ~and ~you know, that that's a, ~that's a level of tolerance that we could probably benefit

Kristen: We could all Yeah.

Mike: I'm kind of out of patience personally. ~Um, ~I'm kind of out of patience with this. 

Kristen: Yeah,

Well, it's, yeah, it's hard, but it is really, it does help, I think, when you understand the other person's perspective, even if you don't agree with it. It's not the same thing as agreeing with it. But yeah, he actually says, if you only get one thing from this book,~ like ~let it be this like an increased affinity to think always of the other person's POV and see things from it as well as your own may prove to be one of the biggest stepping stones of your career. So the principle in [01:00:00] summary is try to honestly see things from the other person's point of view. Yeah. 

Mike: it.

Kristen: I talk about this with my levels of listening too. Immersive listening is literally like what distinguishes it is your focus on entirely on understanding the other person's perspective and view and feelings. And then you can proceed from there. So chapter nine, What Everybody Wants. So he says that ~there's, ~there's a magic phrase that will stop arguments, eliminate ill feelings, create goodwill, and make the other person listen attentively, which is, I don't blame you one iota for feeling as you do. If I were you, I would undoubtedly feel just as you

Mike: Yeah. That's where the Lincoln organized 

Kristen: Yeah. No, that's all related. But yeah. He says ~like, ~three quarters of the people you meet are hungering and thirsting for sympathy. Give it to them and they will love you. And I did wanna [01:01:00] note,~ he,~ he names all of this as sympathy in this chapter.

I think he's really more getting at what we would think of today as empathy,

Yeah. 'cause really the difference between like

Mike: I don't think they had that in the

Kristen: I don't think so either. ~Um, ~But

Mike: this is before World War II. 

Kristen: Yeah. Because now sympathy what we, what we mean by it now is more like feeling sorry for someone's misfortune.

So it's almost more like pity, um, you're feeling sorry for them versus empathy is understanding and sharing their feelings. So you're like feeling with them. So I think this is more what he's getting at. It's just the language wasn't there.~ Um, ~But ~he, ~he gives an example of. And I included this 'cause I thought it was funny with your hotel background, but,~ um,~ a, an escalator repairman who has to inform a hotel manager that their escalator has, is gonna be shut down for the day for repairs.

~Um, ~And the course, the hotel manager is like, we can only have a shut down for two hours maximum. This is like a premium hotel. ~Um, ~And he affirmed [01:02:00] the hotel manager's feelings and he explained that if they don't do an eight hour shutdown now, it's probably gonna result in a shutdown of several days later by damaging it.

~So, ~And ultimately the hotel manager understood. So, principle nine be sympathetic or we would say empathetic with the other person's ideas and desires. Chapter 10, An Appeal That Everybody Likes. So a person usually has two reasons for doing a thing. One that sounds good. And the real one. That's,

Mike: oh my God, that

Kristen: hurts.

Mike: Uh 

Kristen: yeah. These are some harsh truths about humanity.

~Uh, ~But he says, in order to change people appeal to the nobler motives.

Mike: This is where he talks about giving people ~a, ~a fine reputation to You're excellent at that. I'm sure you're gonna get 

Kristen: Though, actually, yeah, that comes back in the last chapter. But,~ um, but it's, ~it's similar, right? Like you're, [01:03:00] so he gives an example of this.

So like John D Rockefeller wanted photographers, whatever the equivalent of paparazzi was at that point, to stop taking photographs of his children. And he appealed to them, not by saying like, I want you to stop doing this, but by pointing out that like many of them had children themselves and they would know that it wasn't good for youngsters to get too much publicity. So it's like appealing to like ~the, the, ~the nobler motive, the higher motive. ~Right?~

Mike: We don't care about that~ That, ~That ha that stopped working in the sixties. 

Kristen: I mean, I don't know. That's an

Mike: In the sixties, they, the press didn't report on JFK's many to affairs.

Kristen: Oh, you mean like the paparazzi thing? 

Mike: I just mean, nowadays people I feel ~like ~have degenerated into ~ on a,~

unabated unrepentant self-interests.

Kristen: Yeah, I

Mike: ~And, and, ~And the gotcha. ~You know, ~As if everything's a fight ~for, ~for some [01:04:00] kind of 

Kristen: Yeah. There, there is an argument that this is less effective now than it was in the thirties for sure.

effective. Yeah,

Yep. No, that's fair. ~We don't, ~we don't agree with all a hundred percent of it.

Mike: I mean,~ he's, really in,~ the thing is he's into human nature, he's got he's got an understanding of psychology that's 50 years ahead of where he should be. You know how he got that? I don't know. So he made ~a, a, ~a real world study of a lot of influential people leaders. 

Kristen: Yep. He did. Yeah. A lot of this is, you can tell he studied ~many, ~many other people and read many books . So chapter 11, The Movies Do It. Advertisers Do It. Why Don't You do it? And it's too much talk is tiresome, ineffective people like dramatic action. So use dramatization and [01:05:00] showmanship when presenting your ideas.~ So,~

Mike: like 

Kristen: I mean, I think,

Mike: what is it? The ~um, ~it's like theatricality.

Kristen: Yeah.

Mike: It works though.

Kristen: It works though. It works. It still works. ~I mean, ~I think it looks different now, obviously. ~Um, but you know, ~You hear like death by PowerPoint,~ like,~ like being more creative about the way you engage people when you're presenting things.

Mike: I saw a meme today,, like the entire global economy is propped up by Microsoft Excel. Like it all depends on Excel.

Kristen: I mean, it's probably not wrong. 

Mike: Excel is the one highly functioning Microsoft product. I guess PowerPoint's kind of okay. I don't really use it. And 

Kristen: yeah. 

Mike: Outlook. Ugh. Why is the search so 

Kristen: We can do a whole episode on complaining about Microsoft, but

Mike: Well, but the, ~I mean, ~we all use Outlook all the time ~and, ~and you're like, can I search for a PDF ~that I I~ that I saw [01:06:00] yesterday?

I was like, Outlook's, like, sorry bro. You had your chance.

Kristen: I haven't used Outlook in probably like

Mike: Uh, it's

Kristen: 15 years. 

Mike: Yeah. That's why you look happy. 

Kristen: Maybe a little less, maybe a little more recent than that, but not, it's been at least a decade.

Mike: It's ~like, ~Yeah. Social media is bad for health, for mental health, but what about Teams?

Kristen: Yeah. So,~ um, ~the final chapter of this part on about influencing people basically, When Nothing Else works, Try This. And he quotes Charles Schwab the best. The way to get things done is to stimulate competition. I do not mean an sordid money getting way, but in the desire to excel.

Mike: Yeah. Charles Schwab like shows up ~at a, at a, ~at a manufacturing plant, and he finds like it's a little underperforming, and he asks, ~you know, ~how many units did you guys produce today, they said 5. So with chalk, he writes [01:07:00] a giant five on the floor, doesn't say anything, just writes it and like, circles it or whatever. And then the evening shift comes in and he doesn't say anything and they're like, what is that 5 for.~ You know? ~And starts a little buzz and somebody's ~like, ~that's how many units, ~you know?~

And ~the, ~the morning shift comes back the next day and their five is scribbled out and somebody wrote seven, and ~now they're, ~now they're in a friendly competition, and the next day it's 15. Now Charles Schwab is, that's why he's Charle Schwab. 

Kristen: Yeah. Yep. Yeah. He also references Frederick Herzberg, which if you remember, we did our motivation episode, talked about the two factor theory of motivation.

I 

Mike: don't remember that but 

Kristen: ~uh, ~Well, it's the same Herzberg, just a fun fact.

But,~ um, but he, ~but he found that the number one factor that motivates people is the work itself. So like ~people, ~people get a lot of satisfaction from doing a good job. And he says every successful person loves the game. The chance for self-expression to [01:08:00] prove their worth to excel, to win. And so principle number 12 is throw down a challenge,

which actually sounds more modernized.

~What's going on?~

~That~

~was a very, that was a very dramatized.~

Mike: ~additional~

Kristen: ~Coffee grabbing that just happened. It's okay. We're almost done. And we can get and or done to and or on~

Mike: ~It's three episodes out. I don't know if we're gonna, I'm stay awake for that.~

Kristen: ~Yeah, it's a lot.~

Mike: ~a lot. It's a lot.~

Kristen: ~It's a lot. That's a lot of episode.~

Mike: ~I'm usually complaining now that streaming services don't release everything at once. Honestly, if they did, I'd drink six espressos and watch the whole thing through.~

Kristen: ~Yeah. Well, it's probably better for your sleep.~

Mike: ~I'll complain me.~

Kristen: ~Right.~

Mike: ~And there's still some New Yorker in there. Still curmudgeonly, and still a little bit, you know. Yeah.~

~apple pie is too sweet. This job pays too well. I'm suspicious. Okay. Uh,~

Kristen: But yeah, just to wrap up this part, I also a hundred percent agree that like, when in doubt, make it a competition. If you wanna incentivize something. Sure. So true. I've used this so many times as a leader, and it really does.

People just love competition. Even if the prize isn't like that, great. They just love the, they love the competition.

Mike: There was a,~ um, but~ Byzantine leader who saved the city by appealing to the competitive nature of some, I think, and not soccer teams or whatever they were during, but like the Walls, Byzantium was famous for having ~like ~the thickest, unbeatable walls.

And they did not come down for a long, long, long, long time. But at some point there was a, I think it was like a nap, the earthquake or something, I think it was Atila, was about to show up or I can't remember which raider. And there was not enough time to [01:09:00] repair the walls and he appealed to the,~ um,~ the local sports teams.

I don't know, it wasn't soccer, but it was something like that. And that, and, ~you know, ~and he asked the teams themselves to ~like, ~get their fans involved and he made it a little competition.

And they rebuilt the walls and survived.

Kristen: Yeah. There you go. Yeah. So that brings us to part four, Be a Leader, How to Change People Without Giving Offense or Arousing Resentment. So chapter one, If You Must Find Fault, This Is the Way To Do It. 

Mike: This is his cookie.

Kristen: This is ~kind of ~not really a cookie, it's just like a, it's like a Oreo with the top taken off. I don't something like that,

Mike: it's like an Oreo with the top taken off and the, or the white part.

~The, ~The cream part is eight feet thick.

Kristen: Yeah,

Mike: That's probably my cookie a little bit. Like I say, I try and say so many nice things that the [01:10:00] few,~ you know, ~critical things, first of all, you know that they're real because otherwise I wouldn't be telling you. And second of all,~ I've,~ I've hopefully built you up so much that they're not destroying your ego or ~like ~affecting your self worth.

Or you think I'm overly cra, ~you know?~

It's like ice cream on top of your cookie.

Kristen: Pretty much. Yeah. I mean, he says it's always, it's easier to listen to unpleasant things after we've heard some praise of our good points. And he, he actually includes the full, what he calls like the second most famous letter Abraham Lincoln ever wrote. He includes a full letter in, in this chapter, but the

Mike: ~The~~ general hooker, by the way, that's where the word hooker comes from. Um, he was famous for, for having a lot of camp followers and prostitutes.~

~Sex~

~workers? We don't say prostitute anymore. No. Okay. We'll then take that out, ~

Kristen: ~Yeah, I can take it out.~

Mike: ~Uh, ~General Hooker was famous for frequenting sex workers and having, you know~ , ~so that's where the word, that's where the word hooker comes from. Not the best look for the general of ~the, the, you know, ~the Union armies. He was incredibly ineffective. They all were until Ulysses S Grant, they were, they, the North should have won the Civil War so many times, and it is a [01:11:00] study in military incompetence and cowardice.

But Abraham Lincoln, his patient, and I can't remember which general refuses to,~ like,~ he had a, they had a moment where they could have boxed Lee in. He could not have escaped and

~I can't remember which general, but, and, and Lincoln, um, you know, sent him a letter and said, don't call a council of war, just attack you will win.~

~And he would have, and, um, I'm gonna figure out which general, hold on. Uh, it won't take me long. Civil War is, ~is. The guy who eventually ran against Lincoln,~ uh,~ George McClellan,~ uh,~ famous for his lack of kind of courage in, and, but Lincoln then says ~like, you know, ~I, if I had seen all the bloody, ~you know, ~gore ~and, ~and car, this man has seen, maybe I wouldn't have been quick to attack either.

And he understood his perspective and didn't send this letter, which we only know because it was found in the

Kristen: Oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah.

I have heard

Mike: that. Yeah. He ~found the, ~found the letter that his wife saved, but he didn't send. ~Yeah, ~yeah.

Kristen: Well,~ he, ~he prints this particular letter to General Hooker because ~this was, ~this was during like the, as you've ~kind of ~noted, the darkest period of the Civil [01:12:00] War, April, 1863.

But,~ um,~ Carnegie's point, and this is that ~he, ~he notes how Abe Lincoln praises General Hooker for his strengths before naming his faults.

Mike: That's smart. Beginning with praise is like the dentist who begins their work with Novocaine.

Kristen: Yeah. The patient still gets the drilling, but the Novacaine is pain killing.

It rhymes

Mike: Oh my God.

Kristen: ~like, ~Like several things in this book. ~Um, yeah. I mean, ~So pr the principle of this is begin with praise and honest appreciation. ~I, ~I do think that's generally true. I think it depends on your relationship with 

Mike: the person. I, I think it's, I think it's more about the overall relationship than the particular incident.

If you've developed a long period of trust with people, then you can tell them directly when something's wrong and they don't think you're rejecting them. They don't think they're gonna get fired. They don't lose confidence in themselves. It doesn't become this ginormous event. You've built ~this, ~this foundation of positive reinforcement [01:13:00] and supportiveness that they've come to, to trust you.

You know, that's not a one time thing.

Kristen: No, and I think it's a lot of it's, ~you know, we, ~we've done a couple episodes on feedback now, but the how you frame it ~and, ~and people in your relationship with them and then feeling like you have their best interests at heart allows you to give more direct feedback.

~Um, but, ~but it is important that you're generally, your feedback in general be balanced. So I do, I somewhat agree.~ Um, ~This is also ~kind of ~similar chapter two, How to Criticize and Not Be Hated for It. ~Um, ~he said,~ well,~ there are tactful ways to say what you want. One three letter word destroys that intention, which is the word "but." 

Mike: You're

doing great, but exactly.

Kristen: Exactly

Mike: Good grades Johnny, but, but

Kristen: Yeah, this, "but" is poison. It delivers criticism in the guise of a compliment and subtly cloaks the true meaning of a statement. Yeah. This is so true. I so agree with this. What we talk about, [01:14:00] like in, in my work

Mike: I'm sorry if I offended you, but the my wasn't my intention.

Oh, okay. All right. Thanks. Thanks for

Kristen: You're like, cool. That's just, yeah,

Mike: Now I'm angrier

Kristen: Yeah. And at improv we talked about Yes And not Yes, But,

Mike: Oh, I used that on you a couple weeks

Kristen: Yes, you did. I did not like

Mike: That's 'cause it was accurate.~ I ~I told her she was doing Yes, But

Kristen: I was like, don't use my own things against me. ~Yeah, ~Yeah. It's okay. ~I mean, he was, ~he was right, but whatever.~ Um, ~But yeah, so he argues that it's more effective to demonstrate what you want rather than verbally criticize your employees. So principle number two is call attention to people's mistakes indirectly. And I think, again, this kinda goes into ~like, we've, ~we've talked about our philosophy on feedback before. ~Um, ~I've, I definitely venture more towards direct feedback, but like in the context of a very trusting relationship where you've built that person up a lot, just talked about. [01:15:00] But I think ~this, this, ~this note about the word, "but" is ~very, ~very key.

Mike: Yes, but ouch. ~I, ~I knew I had you,

I was like, I knew I had, I was like, I know she's not gonna be able to argue with this.

This is gonna be like, she's gonna get it, you know? She's gonna see how she's wrong. Totally

Kristen: There will be revenge at some point. I'm sure

Mike: That's terrifying.

Kristen: Not like that. I'll just find some of your own things to use against you at some point.

Wow.

Mike: Geez,

~Fuck me. ~

Kristen: ~Marriage is~

~all about revenge and credit. Credit for credit, right? Like, that's how it works. That's what everybody recommends.~

Mike: ~that's very, that's a very, I wanna say know, women don't, they're making lists. Even if they don't notice your, they don't say anything about your mistakes right now. They're keeping track.~

Kristen: ~I mean, you absolutely do that.~

Mike: ~I do not, I don't keep track. I just have a very good memory.~

Kristen: ~do.~

Mike: ~do. It's not my fault.~

Kristen: ~Uhhuh, Uhhuh, Uhhuh.~

Mike: ~Uhhuh, it's all stored in there for later use~

Kristen: ~God,~

Mike: ~for revenge. No, I listen~

Kristen: ~no. I mean, yeah,~

~We're~

~we're talking about this lately, obviously. ~

Mike: ~No, we're, yeah.~

Kristen: ~No. Yeah, we are. Um, ~But yeah. So moving into the rest of these, so Chapter three, Talk About Your Own Mistakes First.

Mike: chapter 1300.

Kristen: Yeah. It's not, it's like the, it's the fourth

Mike: chapter. There's a lot of repeated, ~you know, ~like this book also could have been about at least two thirds of the length

Kristen: It could have definitely been shorter. Just a little bit. There's some repetition. Yeah, absolutely.

Mike: ~The whole guise is be ni~ The whole gist of it is be ni, [01:16:00] be kind to people, be supportive, that's it, but then you gotta break it out a little bit for the publishing.

Kristen: Yeah. So we'll try to move through the rest of these so we're not here all night, but,

Mike: One way, one way out.

Kristen: But ~he, ~he, this one, he talks about how when he had his 19-year-old niece working for him and he wanted, when he wanted to call intention to a mistake, he would like to talk about his own mistakes at her age first.

~Um, ~He says admitting your own mistakes, even when you haven't yet corrected them, can help convince somebody to change their own behavior. So his principals talk about your own mistakes before criticizing the other person. ~Um, I don't, ~I don't think this is necessarily a hard rule. I think it depends on the situation, but this is definitely a tactic that can help.

Mike: ~Sure. ~

~I'm making sure that I can pick you up on ~

Kristen: ~Okay. But can recording?~

Mike: ~No. If I don't do, if I don't multitask, I will never get done, but yes. Okay. Go back.~

~Take~

~that You're so good at taking parts out.~

Kristen: ~Yeah. It's so, it's all of, it's more work, but hey, um,~ Chapter four, no one likes to take orders and this, 

Mike: oh my God, is your name next to this? Kristen does not [01:17:00] like to take orders.

Kristen: That's true. That's very true.

Mike: Jesus. It's rough for me. ~Send help. Uh,~

Kristen: Yeah. He cites a particular example, Owen D. Young founder of RCA electronics company ~um, ~almost never gave direct orders like, do this or do that. Instead, he would use phrases like, what do you think of this? And he gave people the opportunity to do thing, the things themselves, and let them learn from their mistakes. Talks about resentment caused by a brash order may last a long time.

Mike: I'm sorry. Jocko, back to John. I know he talked about that a lot. He's ~like, ~I ne I almost never gave an order.

Kristen: Yeah. I, this reminds me ~of, ~of,~ well,~ both the military books we've done, I think to some, I think It's Your Ship had

Mike: Yeah. He didn't give a lot of orders. Yeah. Yeah. He showed people the goal, he showed them the vision and then he asked them what they wanted to do, how they were gonna do it. I think there was more like freedom in It's Your Ship.

Jocko was still like actually in combat. Yeah. But he trained people with such like understanding and decentralized command. He is like, when I was in [01:18:00] combat, I didn't say a word.

Kristen: ~Yeah, ~Yeah.

Mike: They knew what to do.

Kristen: And Carnegie says instead, beginning with questions makes an order more palatable and often stimulates the creativity of those you ask as well. ~Like, ~'Cause people are just more likely to accept an order if they've had a part in the decision that caused the order to be issued.

The principle is ask questions instead of giving direct orders. Chapter

five, Let the Other Person Save Face.~ Um, ~This is really

Mike: So smart.

Kristen: Yeah. This is really important that. ~He, ~He gives an example of how GE like artfully removed a leader that they described as indispensable but highly sensitive from being the head of a department and not running it well.

But ~they, ~they gave him a new,~ like,~ complimentary title and let somebody else head up the department and he was happy because he felt like he saved face with it. ~Um, ~Carnegie says so often we ride [01:19:00] roughshod over the feelings of others getting our own way, finding fault, issuing threats without even considering the hurt to the other person's pride.

Ah, this is what I put another, impossible to pronounce French name in here, but a quote from French aviation pioneer and author, Antoine de Saint-Exupery

I speak zero French, you can tell. 

Mike: No, that was sounded perfect.

Kristen: ~Um, ~Yeah. Um,~ we'll, ~we'll just pretend that pronunciation was better, but

Mike: The French are getting pitchforks right now.

Kristen: Hey, I said I don't speak any French.

Mike: Oh, don't they believe you.

Kristen: Wow. The jabs are

Mike: excited.

Kristen: out now.

Mike: Oh,~ I,~ I'm sorry. I thought that said, how to spar people in success, not spur people. I apologize. I got the wrong vibe.

Kristen: ~Uhhuh~

Uhhuh~ Um, ~but anyway, his quote was, I have no right to say or [01:20:00] do anything that diminishes a man in his own eyes. What matters is not what I think of him, but what he thinks of himself.

Hurting a man in his dignity is a crime. Oh. I think this is especially true when we talk about like, when you need to fire or lay people off, ~like ~let them keep their dignity.

Mike: For sure.~ it's, ~it's 

Kristen: so important. ~Like, ~let the other person

Mike: well there's goes back to like how a person gets their feeling of importance. 

Kristen: Mm-hmm. 

Mike: You know, tells you who they are.

Kristen: Yeah, absolutely.

~Um, ~So yeah,~ we're,~ we're getting towards the finish line. Mike is really excited to still be here.

Mike: Like I'm in that prison on Andor

Kristen: Oh, oh God.

Mike: How many widgets did you produce today?

Kristen: Oh my God. 

Mike: I'm ~gonna get, ~gonna get shocked. The four. I'm gonna get shocked.

Kristen: What a great dramatization of your point, Mike

Mike: I speak an allegory.

Kristen: ~Uh, ~So yes, chapter six. How

Mike: [01:21:00] 6,000?

Kristen: How To Spur People Onto Success. So he said animal trainers have been using positive reinforcement to train dogs for like centuries.

Why don't we do the same thing? Praising even the slightest improvement inspires a person to keep on improving. And he talks about like looking back on his own life and seeing places where a few words of praise sharply changed his entire future. And he notes, this is kind of back to the flattery versus appreciation.

Like singling out a specific accomplishment. It's much better than just like general flattering remarks. ~Um, ~Everybody likes to be praised, but when it's specific, it comes across as sincere, not as something said just to manipulate. And he, this is also where he notes like the principles taught in this book will work only when they come from the heart.

Mike: That's true. 

Kristen: If we inspire the people with which we come into contact by giving them a realization of the hidden treasures they possess, we can do far more than change people. We can [01:22:00] transform them. So this principle summarized is praise the slightest improvement and praise every improvement. Be hearty in your aprobation and lavish in your praise. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Kristen: And then number seven, Give a Dog a Good Name. So this comes from the saying like, ~give a, ~give a dog a bad name and you may as well shoot him. It was just aggressive. Very aggressive. ~Um, ~Yeah, ~I don't, ~I don't hear that one much anymore. But,~ uh,~ but basically this is, we respond to what others believe about us.

And I think this is so true, like~ if, if, ~if you label a young person as a troublemaker or delinquent, they tend to live up to that reputation. 

Mike: There's, I read, I don't remember which book I was reading, but there's actually a lot of study and the way you name a child will determine their long-term success. Mm-hmm.

~Maxes are way more successful than, you know, gas bars. Uh, yeah. There's a lot of truth.~ There's a lot of data behind it. ~They have higher earnings and it's not even, okay. Max is obviously, but if you name your child something out of left field,~

~it it, they have less demonstrable success than people that have common names.~

~Yeah. ~

Kristen: ~But,~

But yeah, I mean I think in this case it's, ~I mean, ~I think it's true like when, like especially when you're talking about young people, what they're labeled as 

Mike: Sure.

Kristen: [01:23:00] Has a, because then they already feel like they've been condemned and

Mike: You can ruin their life.

Kristen: They feel like they have nothing to lose. Yeah.~ Um, ~But where he goes with this is ~like, ~everybody has at least one quality that can be respected and admired. So why not offer people the opportunity to demonstrate their strengths rather than find fault in their weaknesses. And this is where it gets into, this is what you were talking about. ~Like if you want, ~if you want someone to develop a particular trait, assume they already have it. Give them a fine reputation to live up to and they will make efforts to improve. 

Mike: I had some leaders criticize like, you're not being realistic with them. I was like, okay, I get that. But you know, I'm trying to help them, excel and believe in themselves. It's bit me in the, tuchus a few times. But

Kristen: Yeah, I don't think it necessarily works in every case, but

Mike: does not.

Kristen: ~it, ~it's a tactic.

Mike: It's a tactic

Kristen: For sure. Or a that you can have like in your toolbelt..~ Um, yeah.~ Last couple short chapters. Number eight, Make the Fault Seem Easy [01:24:00] To Correct.

Mike: Tina was really good at that.

I remember when I read, when I got to that chapter, I was like, this dude is doing that.

He's making these giant things that are going to really take me weeks to fix. Sound easy.

Kristen: ~Hmm. ~Yeah. And ~there's, well, I mean, we,~ what Dale Carnegie says, if you tell someone they're bad at a certain thing, have no gift for it or doing it all wrong, you've destroyed almost every incentive they have to try to improve. 

Mike: Yeah. So 

Kristen: It's like the opposite of that. Be liberal with your encouragement. Make the things seem easy to do. Let them know you have faith in their ability to do it. I think that last part is really critical. And then that gives them the incentive to like practice until the dawn comes in order to excel. Whereas if you make it sound like this really hard journey, it's gonna be lot less motivating for them. So I think ~there's ~there's truth there

Mike: for 

Kristen: So principle number eight, use encouragement, make the fault seem easy correct. And then the very last one is number [01:25:00] nine, Make People glad to Do What You Want. So this is like always make the other person happy about doing the thing you suggest. And he says this is a matter of finding a way for others to get something out of helping us, whether it's recognition, appreciation, or a reward for their cooperation.

So principles make the other person happy about doing the thing you suggest. 

Mike: Good luck. to do That's hard, man.

Kristen: Yeah.

Mike: Like honestly those are, that's challenging. Yeah, no, that's some subtle kung fu right there. I

Kristen: I think this like the make them think it was their idea. Like there's a lot more

Mike: so much to that.

Kristen: to that there's an art to 

Mike: an art. There's an art to that for sure.

Kristen: Yeah. But could be a whole other book. But yeah, we made it.

Mike: Or are we done?

Kristen: We made it to the end of the book,~ so. ~Okay.

Mike: Okay. Kristen, what didn't ~resonate?~ resonate? 

Kristen: So, um, you know, we've talked about some things in individual chapters that didn't necessarily resonate. I think overall [01:26:00] the, ~you know, this, ~this could be condensed.

There's some repetition there. ~Um, ~But I think in addition to that, one, one thing about this book is a lot of the recommendations include some version of like softening or watering down your language. And many people can benefit from doing this, but this book is also written for men in the 1930s and I think that is reflected there.

~Um, ~Women especially have often been socialized to soften our language too much.

Mike: That's fair. That's something that he talks about in,~ um,~ not, is Not Boundaries, is it?

Boundaries for Leaders, which is Michael Bungay Stanier?,

Kristen: That's the Coaching

Mike: Habit. The Coaching Habit. And he talks about, he gives different advice to different people about how they should wield their power. And where he gives away power for a lot of women or minor, he encourages them to exercise their powers in different 

Kristen: ways. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So I think this is ~you, ~you have to really consider your own current behavior with language,~ um,~ rather than blindly applying these. 'cause I [01:27:00] think a lot of women, we tend to by default, over apologize or just add too many qualifiers on our statements to begin with, to soften them.

And that's not actually always effective. So this isn't necessarily gonna blanket apply to everyone. ~Um, on a, ~On a side note, like if, ~you know, ~this is something you struggle with,~ I,~ I thought of a book I read many years ago. It could be completely out of date. I think it's like 20, like was published in 2001.

~Um, ~But it was called, How to Say It For Women by Phyllis Bendell. And I just remember it had some really good examples of ~like, ~very specific ways you can make your language stronger and more impactful. So if that's something that you were thinking about for your own communication, you might wanna check it out. So what didn't resonate for you, Mike?

Mike: now? ~I mean, ~Honestly ~the, ~the book resonates ~pretty, ~pretty overall.

~Um, ~I don't know about the, ~you know, ~the ~yes, ~yes part. People saying ~yes, ~yes. It's a little, it strikes me nowadays as a little bit manipulative, not super [01:28:00] effective.~ you know, ~Overall this is a book about like, be kind and supportive to people and you're gonna tap into their positive human nature.

Kristen: For sure.

Mike: I also thought, like most books, it could be one third shorter.

Kristen: That is our common.

Mike: Yeah. Well, I don't know.~ You know, ~It's okay. But,~ um,~ I just, I think some of these such good advice, ~you know, ~give people a reputation to live up to. 

~Know, ~Praise every improvement, 

Kristen: What was your most life changing takeaway?

Mike: Um, ~ you know, ~as a very analytical personality, this kind of is ~the, ~the gospel of leaders are more about how you make people feel and ~how about you interact,~ how you interact with them on a daily basis. Then the data and facts that you bring them. 

Kristen: Mm-hmm. 

Mike: Yeah.

Kristen: Yeah.

Mike: Charles Schwab, he was not paid for his hard work.

He was paid for his smile, for how he made people [01:29:00] feel and how he got them to ~like ~do what he needed them to do. That's, ~you know, ~that's ~kind of ~life changing for me.l People are not swayed by, again, Martin Luther King had a dream, not a plan. So for me that, that's a kind of paradigm shift

Kristen: For sure. And

Mike: And I think this book was ~a, a, ~a real like icing on the cake of understanding that. And ~You ~

Kristen: clearly remember it very well

Mike: 10 times bro

Kristen: You brought up many things that were not in my notes. 

Mike: yeah. 

Kristen: yeah.~ Um,~

Mike: Just what stuck with me, you know?~ ~And ~I, ~I do come back to this book a lot, but check out the audio book. ~The gentleman reading it is not who you would expect.~

~Apparently I was expecting like an English dude that looked like JR R Token, and he does not, he looks like he's in a rap, you know? He is a rap, but he's not also, I guess he's a poet that's could be similar anyway. ~ ~ Uh, ~What was your most life changing takeaway?

Kristen: I've found it really hard to choose one. ~Um, ~I think there are a couple things that stick out. ~I mean, ~I think especially ~kind of like ~what you were saying, like the framing when you're like in trying to influence people, like really framing it around them and what benefits them is like, I know this on an intellectual level's so[01:30:00] 

Mike: It's so hard to do though.

It's hard. It's really hard to do.

yeah. 

Kristen: yeah. And there's various other things in here that, ~you know, ~I've ~kind of ~called out are not my strengths. So,~ um, ~but I think I also just found it really cool to see a lot of principles like around listening and understanding the other person's perspective. Like these are just very core to the work that I do with bringing in improv principles to leadership development.

And it was cool to see them emphasized like 90 years ago. 

Mike: Yep. very cool. Great book.

It's, should be part, should be one of your like top 10 leadership toolkit puts books.

Kristen: yeah. Well, I think as you've noted, it's one you can ~kind of ~keep coming back to also. So

Mike: A very,~ like, you know, ~cohesive message. Core principles serve you well.

Kristen: Very concisely summarized, 

Mike: Very concisely summarized, even though it's long.

Kristen: even though it's long, ~you know, ~it's long, but there's, the principles are very easy to take away from it. 

Mike: Good luck applying them though. It's,

Kristen: Some of them need a lot more

Mike: Some of them need a lot of work, A lot of work. [01:31:00] All right, we'll come back to that.

Chris Voss in his,~ uh,~ current Instagram feed says it doesn't need to be perfect. So ~on that, ~on that note, this is our submission for imperfection and you know how to win friends and influence people. 

Kristen: Well, thank you guys for listening. That concludes ~our, ~our LBC on How to Win Friends and Influence People.

And we will see you guys next time.

Mike: Thank you. The Love and Leadership Podcast is produced and co-hosted by me, Kristen Brun Sharkey and co-hosted by Mike Sharkey. Please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. We can't stress enough just how much these reviews help. You can follow us on LinkedIn under Kristen Brun Sharkey and Michael Sharkey, and on Instagram as loveleaderpod.

Kristen: You can also find more information on our website, loveandleadershippod.com. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you again next week. [01:32:00]