How to Give Difficult Feedback Effectively

Kristen: Welcome to Love and Leadership, the podcast that helps you lead with both your head and your heart, plus a bit of humor. I'm Kristen Brun Sharkey, a leadership coach and facilitator.

Mike: And I'm Mike Sharkey, a senior living and hospitality executive. We're a couple of leadership nerds who also happen to be a couple.

Kristen: Join us each week as we share our unfiltered opinions, break down influential books, and interview inspiring guests.

Mike: Whether you're a seasoned executive or a rising star, we're here to help you level up your leadership game and amplify your impact.

Kristen: Hello, and welcome back to Love and Leadership. I'm Kristen,

Mike: And I'm Mike.

Kristen: and we are going to be talking today about giving difficult feedback, which is a very popular topic when I ask people for topic ideas for this podcast and content in general. So we look forward to diving into it, but first we're going to do our leadership moments for the week.

Mike: Oh, I'm first? Okay.

Okay. I don't know if this is, qualifies as a leadership moment, right? But I was, I'm pretty inspired by The Coaching Habit. And I started reading his other book, The Advice Trap, which, talks about how to tame your advice monster.

And, I have a meeting with two of my directors tomorrow, one of them's new and we're going to set the framework for the department. And I'm really determined not to, butt in too much. I want to really follow The Coaching Habit, the seven questions and let them,lead the direction.And I like to set quarterly goals.

Yeah. And so that's my real goal for Q4 is to become much more of a coaching leader and less of an advice monster leader.does that count?

totally. Okay, cool. love it. Passed. 

Kristen: Mine is also related to The Coaching Habit, which is kind of fun.

Mike: Funny that.

Kristen: Yeah. I mean, I think it's, it was really good to do this reread and do a really in depth read of it for me. Because I think I've, I've generally used like the core content, like the seven questions and such with clients when talking about coaching, but I really like the simplicity, actually of just the, the habit formula in there and I've been using it more within for myself and it's also just helped re inspire me and remind me how much I love doing like behavioral coaching in general and just how powerful it is. For example, I, this week, was working with a client who has a very direct communication style and it can come off as abrupt and closed minded to coworkers and just the process of identifying the trigger and being really specific about the trigger.

I really liked the point of having like, location, time, a particular incident, a particular action, etc. So that, you're very specific, and then you can be really specific about what you want to change. So 

Mike: The, the triggers are, are very useful. 

Kristen: Yeah. 

Mike: It's like programming the brain back to basic programming that I learned in 1985 if then, I don't know modern pro, right. But if then, and you can create a condition that will trigger the next set of 

Kristen: Yeah, for sure. And it really helps to just put yourself in that situation and just like, what are all these factors that come together that you know will trigger you? It's super helpful. Behavioral coaching in general, which by behavioral coaching I mean is you're coaching to identify and change or create a specific type of behavior.

So there's a lot of different ways to do it.

But I think that the trigger portion of that is especially useful.

Cool.

Well, we are going to get in to difficult feedback. By the way, this is episode number 10. So we have officially made it into double digits with our episodes. 

Mike: The crowd goes wild. 

Kristen: I think that actually like, I think something like 80 percent of podcasts don't make it past seven episodes or something. So, you know, it's a milestone.

Mike: 80 percent of podcasts are not produced by you. If I was the producer, we would have done like one and a half. It would have been seven hours long and then I would have been, Oh, we're good. That's enough.

Kristen: It would've been seven hours long. Oh, I love it. Yeah. Well, no, we made a commitment when we started doing this. So I was like, we're not going to be a podcast that just puts out a few episodes and then they die off because that happens so often. So like we are committed to being here with you week after week,

Mike: I don't remember committing to 

Kristen: Oh no, you commit.

Mike: Did I?

Kristen: Yeah. You committed to a year at least. Yeah.

Mike: I say things I'm not thinking half the time. I'm just like, yeah, sure, sounds great. Well, yes, dear.

Kristen: You're not doing the production work, it's 

Mike: I know. We would not. it's, your production kung fu is very impressive.

Kristen: But anyway, we've acknowledged that because we're both really terrible at celebrating things. 

Mike: Oh, we're terrible at it. I'm like 10 is nothing. When we get to a hundred, then we'll 

Kristen: Yeah. We also like just never really properly celebrated launching this podcast, which was in itself a huge milestone. We were kind of reflecting on that.

This past weekend, which we, a couple weeks ago when this airs, but we had our first wedding anniversary and we're also just kind of like, yeah, we never really like, just celebrated the podcast

Mike: Nope. We just, nope.

Kristen: Yeah. So we like to talk about celebrating wins because it's something that we're really bad at and are

Mike: We got to get back to that.

Kristen: Get better

Mike: We got to, we got to do The Gap in the Game. Can that, I know that it's a leadership book.

I know it's like self growth, but 

Kristen: No, I think that relates.

Mike: It's so good.

Kristen: It's very good. Yeah. Yeah. So, feedback. A, uh, very 

Mike: Dun, dun, dun.

Kristen: Yeah, the appropriate sound effects. This really deserves an episode topic. I think for a lot of reasons. I, it's something I get asked about a lot, in coaching and with content in general.

And I do have a model I created based on a few different things. So I'll share that as part of this episode as we're discussing. But I also wanted to just take a step back and talk about like, why does feedback matter so much? And there's some good, um, Zenger Folkman, which I believe is like a research firm, I could be totally wrong, or consulting firm, something like that.

But they've done a lot of research on with surveys on feedback and just like a few points I thought were really interesting. So two thirds of employees agreed that my performance and possibilities for success in my career would have increased substantially if I'd been given more feedback. 94 percent said that corrective feedback improves their performance when it's presented well, which I think is pretty is really important to note because generally what this, a lot of this research shows in general is that leaders tend to underestimate how much employees want feedback because they dislike giving it.

So it's, so they're basically underestimating the value of it, but really like 94% are saying they do value corrective feedback by corrective, it's like negative or constructive, feedback. Just the word language they use in this research. 

Mike: This is a big topic.I mean, we're literally reading The Coaching Habit, and now we're talking about like telling other people like where they're right or wrong.

So automatically, like, here's a very, you know, as Jocko would say, the dichotomy of leadership, right? I'm giving you feedback is also presupposing that I know what I'm doing and that I know what you need to do better and that I'm going to tell you in some way. And there's, I'm reading through the outline .

I have some questions too about the directness of the feedback cause it goes against The One Minute Manager, which I thought was a good book. But.How does that work? Right? So we're, we're coaches and we're helping people grow their own capacity, find their own way, nurture their growth, but we're telling them what to do or tell them where they need to improve.

Kristen: So my perspective, I think this, and there's a lot of ways to talk about giving feedback, right? So I think for the purpose of this episode, we'll keep it mostly focused on like giving feedback to direct reports, like for example, cause that's a little bit more of like a structured 

Mike: It's, it's structured. 

Kristen: Um, I think there's a separate topic in requesting feedback as a leader, and requesting and receiving feedback is its own topic.

And then like giving feedback to people who do not report to, into you, I think is also its own topic. And these are all really valuable, but like in the context of like a manager employee relationship or,

Mike: Okay, so there's a governing framework. 

Kristen: Yeah. Yeah. Just for the purpose of this conversation, because that kind of helps with some of the, because as a manager, specifically you have multiple roles, right?

So like one of your roles is to be a coach ideally, but it's not your only role. You also are helping people perform within the expectations of the role and you have a responsibility. As a manager to talk to them about if they're not meeting those expectations or if they are meeting the expectations, but they want to get to another level and you know what level they want to get to and they want to know what they need to do to get to that level.

Mike: So I consider feedback to be a responsibility It is. Yeah, it is your responsibility. I had trouble giving feedback at one point because I, I want to be a humble person and I always want to be learning. And so at some point at the start of my management career. I was like, I didn't like telling people things that I saw that they could improve on, even though it was my position to do so. And I actually had a VP was like, No, you, you signed your offer letter for the job, you're supposed to do it. And even though he was, that was the same guy that liked to, couches micromanagement.

And did you think about?

I got it. It's Okay, it's not me. It's my position. Yeah. It's the position of my role to, to guide and direct others in their performance. So that helped me a little bit. It's not me telling somebody. And I think the thing we're going to break down here, like there's a difference in,coaching the person or criticizing a person and critiquing behavior.

And that's maybe why feedback is hard to give and receive because I don't want you to tell me that I'm a bad person or that you don't like me, you know, but I want you to tell me how I can improve at my job for sure. But those things are really kind of wound up 

Kristen: Yeah. And we'll talk about that.

I 

Mike: know I

Kristen: How to give feedback too, because, but I do think that's important, right? How you go about giving the feedback is like everything really. So it's first of all, it's like. Accepting that you, as a manager, it is your job to give feedback.

Mike: Yes it is your job. 

Kristen: And people want feedback. I think that's what this research is kind of interesting around is that there really is an appetite for feedback and most people don't feel like they're getting enough of it. Like this is actually interesting. Like where in the same survey, 62 percent of leaders rated themselves as highly effective at providing others with honest, straightforward feedback.

While 60 percent of employees said they hadn't received any useful feedback in the past six months. Like 60 percent hadn't received any useful feedback in the past six months.

Mike: I don't know if I'm good at giving feedback, but my team seems to appreciate the, because I want them to grow and everything I tell them is, performative in some way because I need you to perform. But I really, I want them to grow.

And I think people can tell when you're on their side. You know, we talked about the tribe, which I think is or TERA. TERA from the Coaching Habit. Tribe is the first one. It's absolutely so powerful, if you, if they feel psychologically safe, and they know you're rooting for them, and you actually are trying to help them grow, the feedback lands very differently than if it's, a coaching and counseling side of the thing, right?

So they have to trust you as a person, and they have to trust your intentions.

Kristen: Yeah, for sure. And that's an important part of it. But yeah, I mean, I think overall it's clear, like, from research, Obviously a lot of leaders are giving good feedback, but a lot of employees don't feel like they're receiving that. And I think it's, as somebody who is naturally, conflict avoidant.

I, this was something that

Mike: Oh, it's so hard.

Kristen: really hard for me early in my career too. When I started managing people, it's, it's very difficult because, when you're conflict avoidant, you just want to not have these conversations, but

Mike: You know, what helped me with that was Brene Brown's book where she talks about, you just have to

like, 

Kristen: Dare to Lead? 

Mike: I think it's Dare to Lead where you have to like sit in the, like, what did she say?

Call it like a rumble with vulnerability or something. You just have to sit there with the uncomfortableness and you're like, you have to be okay with the silence and with the awkward feeling. And that's a skill, but it's definitely a skill. I kind of remember the first time I really had to like. give a great feedback to not just to like a, an employee, but like a director and then, and that was very awkward. And it was, I was actually, sir, you need to work more than seven and a half hours a day. We're all working 14 hours a day and you're clocking out for lunch and going home.

And that was a weird thing for me. It was partially because I think people should know these things, right? Like there's a difference in behavioral coaching and like, coaching for skills too,I don't love having to give,remonstrative feedback, like you're not behaving well, but what, I shouldn't have to teach you that, right?

Likeyou should come to work with, integrity and, and your work ethic and all of those things, and then we can teach skills, right? But

Kristen: Yeah. And I mean, there are definitely situations where people do not realize things that you think should be very obvious, right? Like things like with showing up to work.

Mike: I, I, I'm sorry. I know I'm getting off, off the thing. But, um, I had an, um, an employee steal money out of a cash register. And then we fired her for it. And we had her on video. Okay.

Kristen: You've had a few of very interesting

Mike: Oh, this, of course I could write a book if someone were going to help me with that.

Okay. She stole money out of the cash register. She was stealing liquor as well. And we had video of it. We wrote her up, we fired her. She filed for unemployment or something like that. And, in the state I was in at the time, it goes before a judge. And It was before COVID, but it was still like a virtual thing.

And we're on the phone call and the judge asks us directly, Did you tell her that she wasn't allowed to steal money? You know, like did you tell him he needed to just show up on time? No, sir. I didn't specifically spell that out I guess I should have but. So the world's kind of a we're in the upside down a little bit 

Kristen: That is when something is actually illegal, like you wouldn't think you need 

Mike: i'm not a i'm not the judge in that

Kristen: But this is also a big part of why like very long employee handbooks exist.

Right.

Mike: People don't get that those handbooks are written by lawyers.

Kristen: Oh, yeah. And you're signing

Mike: them. You're signing a legal document and lawyers will charge 5, 000 to 25, 000 to write your company's handbook. Yeah, that's a whole thing.

Kristen: It's a legal document. It's a

Yeah, I think a lot of people

Mike: They do not know that.

Kristen: that. Now, how enforceable is it? Like, that's a whole other thing, right? but

it. 

Mike: Some things are enforceable and it's a legal trail of documentation and we told this person 35 times that they couldn't be late. I had a company that you had to be late, like, seven times before we could write you. And I'm like, I'm like,

I don't know what to say. Okay, I'll keep doing the documentation, but it seems like after twice we have a problem. Okay, 

Kristen: Yeah. Yeah.

Mike: I work here, I don't know. 

Kristen: So bringing us back a little bit, because I think we, I think another episode, probably multiple episodes, is more like performance management, or how do you deal with underperforming employees is kind of almost its own thing.

But I would say like, for the purpose of this conversation, we can kind of talk about people who are generally like, meaning well and trying Or at least not like, on like super underperformers. Right? Cause that's almost kind of like its own category.

Mike: Yeah. They're engaged. They're trying to show up at work, they're not just,

Kristen: Yeah, so we can assume that for most of this conversation, because that's going to be the majority of employees are going to be like in that, that middle or like high achiever, tier, right? So,so yeah, I found this really interesting. Like, there's a lot of managers who are not giving enough feedback. Employees want more feedback overall. And I think another thing, this like research I found really interesting is that when they surveyed like 4, 000 people who had received like constructive feedback, 74 percent of them indicated that they had known and were not surprised.

Mike: That's true. I added a blurb for history. When I got to college, I was a percussionist, a musician. I had a, a high school teacher, who was outstanding. Um, maybe I should send him the show, Mr. Reinhardt. Uh, he was outstanding. He just, he was an incredible coach. He was an incredible teacher and he was not gentle.

I mean, he was like a football coach, and we were drumline and we'd rehearsed like 20 hours a week and he was driving us like a football team, but he was a very like passionate teacher. He had a lot of very successful,ensembles and students. And then I got to college and I had a great teacher there too, but he was really trying to be nice to me.

And I remember I was playing Keiko Abe's Frogs, which is a really difficult format marimba piece in one of my first private lessons with him. And he was like, it sounds good. And I was like, no, it doesn't. And you know, it doesn't. Why are you telling me? And I'm standing there just frustrated, like. Don't be nice to me, I know it stinks. I think people know, they know.

Kristen: And now the thing is, they may not know how serious something is, or they may know it's an issue but not know how to go about addressing

Mike: Yeah, they don't know how to fix that.

Kristen: Yeah, so like, that's not, that's not a reason to not tell them. That's like more of a reason to talk to them about it. But I think a lot of, I think a lot of people just make the assumption that it's always going to be new information. It's usually people know, but you're giving them clarification, you're putting it into context, and you're helping them come up with actions

Mike: plan. Yeah. You don't have to be an expert to help somebody like work through their own problem, right?

That's coaching. You just ask them clarifying questions and let them clarify the real struggle, the real issue and they'll see the solution probably also. Yeah. If you can help move through the fog. 

Kristen: Yeah, for Yeah, the other thing 

I did throw in one thing on the feedback sandwich. 

Mike: Yeah, that's, I got that, I don't, I didn't used to do that, but I got that from the One Minute Manager and then he wrote The New One Minute Manager, which changed the order of the feedback. Oh, interesting. And you were supposed to first. Give bad feedback, the, the negative feedback and then say something positive or do the sandwich because then they would leave feeling good about you or, you know,

Kristen: I have not read either edition of the One Minute Manager, but I do think that's a much more like outdated form of feedback because what happens and I actually like this. So there's a blog post, which I'll include the link to that and the research I was talking about, in our show notes as usual.

There's a blog post from Kim Scott, who is the author of the book Radical Candor, which I actually have pretty high on our list of books to do. I have not read it and I want to. but I've heard a lot of good things, but she has a blog post on why the feedback sandwich sucks.

Mike: You're talking about it, if I think about the relationship I have with my current team and I've been with them for a year. They, I hope they trust me at this point. They know I'm their advocate.

I don't have to fluff it up. I'm going to say 10 nice things to you today. Also, I can, at some point in, in, I can sit down and be like, Oh, by the way, and it doesn't have to be like, you know, you don't need to slather mayonnaise on it to make it palatable. Like we've earned trust, I trust them.

They trust me. I hope. And, you can, that's like a tribe, right? There's your tribe. Like we're not kicking you out. They know we're not, nobody's going to. People are afraid of being fired. They're, it's a survival wiring where even though like we're not hunting for food, like that's how we get food.

And if you get fired, how do I get food is somewhere in the brain. So even though like, it can unsettling to have to hear negative feedback. Cause you're like, I'm, I'm, I'm I about to lose my, my shelter and my way to feed myself or feed my family. I didn't realize how much pressure that was until I became an adult.

And I was like, Oh, nobody's taking care of me anymore. Like I have to feed myself and I have to pay, dish soap is expensive. Rent is expensive. It puts the pressure on you to in different ways. So

Kristen: No, it absolutely, it does activate that, that part of the brain. Absolutely. And yes, I think something like the feedback sandwich is, can be inauthentic, right?

It goes back to being, hopefully you've established trust with your team, and they know, hopefully, they know that you have their best interests at heart. And if you do that, and if you're also giving timely positive feedback in addition to the constructive feedback, you don't need to just sandwich it in there.

And I should say, actually, if you have not heard of the feedback sandwich before, this was the kind of like original best practice for giving feedback. But it's basically say something positive, then something negative, and then end it with something positive. So I feel like it leads, it ends on a good note.

Which, sure, with, if you're not really thinking about how the human brain works, that sounds nice. And if you're just like, thinking like, oh, they'll like me. I get it, I get it. But I think we know enough now to know that's not actually the right way to approach it.

Mike: approach it. I'm thinking about your model with the inner judge. And you know, one of the things is do they like me? Or you want to be liked.

And it makes you as a leader, hesitant to give, direct feedback, even when it's your responsibility. And to their benefit also, as well as yours to do so. That's a hard, for me, that was a really hard, I'm not saying I've overcome it. It's really hard. We want to be liked. We don't want to be cast out of our tribe.

And

Kristen: Especially if you have people pleasing tendencies,

Mike: What's that like? I don't know.

Kristen: Which can be a personality trait.

It can also be from trauma. So it can be very difficult as a leader in general to be okay with people maybe not liking you. For a lot of people that, for some people it's not a challenge, but for. If you tend toward, if you tend towards that, it can be extremely difficult.

Mike: But that's a good thing to evaluate about yourself. That's something that you should absolutely know. Are you a people pleaser? 

Kristen: Mm hmm. 

Mike: I have one director, she's like the nicest person in the world. And I'm like, I need you to be more bossy. And she's good at it. And I'm like, you don't have, just, you have kids, just be like, I know you know how to boss your kids around, right?

Kristen: Just do that, Yeah, you're setting boundaries, yeah.

Mike: people like kids, but you know, like,

Kristen: Setting 

Mike: Setting boundaries. and directing people and being like, Hey, let's, we got to go, we got to go. Like the bus is leaving. 

Kristen: Yeah, for sure.So yeah, so the reasons that Kim Scott gives for why the feedback sandwich is not good.

One is that it muddles the message because like when you're just getting these three pieces of feedback at once, it's hard to figure out like what is actually most important. It feels insincere and that goes back to that authenticity, right? If you just feel like it's being, you're using this formula, it doesn't feel authentic.

It avoids, I liked how she phrases it, it avoids necessary discomfort.

Mike: Yeah. I hate that.

Kristen: it. But she talks about like some discomfort is, which is absolutely true, it is actually necessary for growth and change.

Mike: that's why I've worked so hard to improve. I just don't want anybody to have to tell me I'm doing anything wrong. I will work three times as hard so that you never have to, I never have to sit with that uncomfortableness when you talk to me.

Kristen: Yeah. And I get it. Well, it's uncomfortable for 

Mike: It's uncomfortable for everybody.

Kristen: Like it's uncomfortable for the person giving the feedback. I still think even though people want feedback,I personally have had or points in my career, especially earlier on, it was very difficult for me to receive constructive feedback because I think it would put me into that fight or flight.

Mike: You have to reach a point of real self-confidence. Not drawing all of your value of yourself from what you do, not just your work, but your actions in general. It's like, I am not all the things I have done. I am, more than that. And those are just the things I've done. And this is what I do for a living. 

Kristen: It is interesting that you said that, because that was one piece, in the Zenger Folkman research too, is that they, the higher a person's self confidence, the more they wanted feedback.

Mike: Sure. Because you don't like, it doesn't crush you. You don't go home and be like, I'm worthless. I'll never. You know, I, I think maybe a little, I got that from The Gap and the Gain too. It's like measure backwards, like I want to go forward in my career. I want to be more than I am, but it went, and that's a good drive, but you look back and you're like, where was I?

Three years ago, where was I? Five years ago, where was I? 10 years ago, 10 years ago, I was waiter in New York City making 10 an hour. Okay, I've come a little ways like, okay, maybe I can, I'm not worthless. You know, I

Kristen: For sure. And I think the more confidence you have and I think the more experience you have as like a senior leader, especially the more you're able to see feedback as a data point. Like it might be an important data point if it's your manager,

Mike: Yeah, for sure.

Kristen: But it's still a data point It's not necessarily going to be the full story.

So and it's not defining who you are as a person.

Mike: It's not defining who you are as a 

Kristen: This is a little bit of a tangent because that's more in like the receiving feedback side of things But it also it matters right because you want to know what's happening for the person you're giving feedback to

Mike: This is like the yin yang of giving feedback.

Kristen: Right. But yeah, so the other things for like the, the feedback sandwich is why it's bad, it wastes opportunities for meaningful praise because it cheapens the positive feedback that you might give otherwise and it creates confusion because it's harder to figure out like what are the actions to take from this if it's sandwiched. And then I think actually, what I think is actually the most important part is it doesn't allow for proper processing. This is why I think it's also important to focus on one thing when you're having, when you're talking about constructive feedback, which has the opportunity to really activate somebody's, fight or flight in, state, nervous system state, right?

If you give them too many things at once

like they, they need, the brain can only process. So much. And if it's something that's so important or that's, that feels so important to your brain, right? And it's, it needs time to process things. So if you just try to give it too much information at once, it's just, it's gonna be less effective. So I liked that. So I.

Mike: I guess I'll stop doing that.

Kristen: I also, um, I have also heard of the feedback. Actually, I think more commonly the feedback sandwich is referred to as the shit sandwich.

Mike: Oh. Are we cursingin our podcast now? I've been really holding back

Kristen: I can beep myself, maybe. I don't know. 

Mike: So maybe listeners, you tell us, if you're, I guess if you're listening to this with children around, like we 

Yeah,

Our, our nephew

Kristen: yeah. Yeah. So maybe I'll bleep myself.

Anyway,

Mike: Anywho.

Kristen: So I think this kind of feeds into the actionable part of this, which is not just, we know why it's important. We know what not to do but what is an actual framework you can use for giving feedback? There are multiple ones out there. I have a framework that I use with coaching clients. I call it like the impel model. I Which stands for intention, moment, presentation, exploration, and layout. And I will put this on in our Instagram as well if you want to see what it looks like. But so going step by step, I think it's worth noting that two of these three steps happen before you actually give the feedback. The first part of this is intention, right?

Like, there's a key element of being intentional about your feedback. So, the first part of that is, doing some self examination and ensuring that your feedback is coming from the right place. What is your reason for giving this feedback? And having the self awareness to know, like, is this just something that's bothering me because it's a pet peeve of mine or it's activating an insecurity of mine or something?

Or is this actually something that is important for their job performance and promotability and career development, right? So that's understanding yourself and making sure that you're coming from a place of genuinely wanting to help them. If there's any kind of power dynamic or any kind of like emotional activation on your part, you should not give feedback at that time.

That's probably an indication that you need to do a little bit of reflection first, in my opinion. And then the next part of is moment. And this is about choosing the right time to give feedback. So did the feedback happen recently is important. I think in general, best practice with feedback is give it as often as possible.

Mike: Yeah, I was going to, I remember from, my other favorite book, It's Your Ship.

He talks about, when they started giving performance reviews, there shouldn't be any surprises in the yearly review. Like we've been talking about this every day, the whole year, and it shouldn't be out of left. Oh my God. I've never heard anything about this behavior that you're now mentioning to me.

No, no, no, no, no. It's constant. It's consistent. It's every day. It's all day.

Kristen: Yeah. I put that, I actually put that in the notes too, because I feel really strongly about that. The performance review should not be a surprise.

Mike: It shouldn't be a surprise. It's not even necessary. To be honest, it shouldn't be necessary. I like the formality somewhat to, to like organize like, okay, here's your quarterly thing and goals and things like that. But come on, we're doing this every day.

Kristen: Yeah, well, hopefully.

Mike: Hopefully

Kristen: I mean, a lot, not everyone is right.So yeah, so I think the, I, you ideally, or you're giving feedback often and you're giving it very quickly after the specific behavior happens.

So there might be cases, we'll talk about that next, like where you may not be able to give feedback like the same day or whatnot, but like you should try to give feedback as close to when the behavior happened as possible because that is going to increase the effectiveness of it.

The other things to observe, like, is the receiver in a positive or neutral state of mind from your perception. If they're having a really difficult day and you can tell that they're like stressed and activated, It's probably not the best time like if you're to give them like some challenging feedback, right?

Like maybe wait till the next day. Or like the next morning when things are like a little bit fresher.

Mike: Call them at home on the weekend.

Kristen: Oh, yeah, that's always great. Yeah And then the other thing that I feel really strongly about is actually gaining their commitment before you start delivering the feedback and it seems kind of like why because they're gonna say yes, right?

And this is like doing something like is it okay if I give you some feedback right now? Are you in a position to listen to some feedback right now? Like you can phrase this in different ways, but actually getting the commitment helps actually engage them in the process and it helps it gives them that like that a little bit of a feeling like control, right?

I think that goes back to the TERA model with The Coaching Habit, right? And making it seem like you actually care about what they want and they have some authority within it, you're not just like forcing it down their throat. So I think that step is often skipped.

And I think it's actually a really important step is to get their commitment.

Mike: You have to know what they want in their life too. There's, are you giving them feedback so that they can grow their career or are they happy where they are and they, you just need them to perform a little better in their, or differently, not necessarily better, differently in their role.

I think you should absolutely know the goals of everyone that works for you and you're going to tailor what you share with them based on know, somebody that wants to grow and be a VP or something, you're going to give them different feedback than you're going to give somebody that's just like happy being a cook and that's, and they don't want to become a chef.

And I didn't know that that was a thing. Until I worked in some New York kitchens and they were like, they call them line dogs and they're line cooks for like 20 years and they're happy with that lifestyle. They're not trying to become a sous chef. They're not trying to become a chef and they're so different feedback, different framework.

Kristen: Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, and I think that's actually, that brings up something I think I want to probably actually add tothe presentation part of this model for questions, but, but also, starting it out by framing the feedback in a way that tells you, like, why you're giving it to them overall.

So like showing them that you're, you have their interests at heart. So like, there's a big difference between saying you need to do this differently and framing in a way that like, you know, I'm looking out for you. I want you to achieve a lot of success in your career. And this is something that could potentially hold you back.

So that's why I'm talking to you about this. Like it feels very different from the perspective of the feedback receiver when you actually do that framing. So getting into the actual delivery of the feedback. So there's a few things within this, I think making sure the feedback is specific and actionable is super important. And the framework I like best for when you're actually giving the feedback itself is the SBI situation behavior impact model. So you explained the situation. So this is like the context, the actually what was happening, like what was the situation first? What was the behavior? That they did or did not do, as specific as possible, like what is the actual behavior, not just how it made, not like how it made you feel or how anything like this is actually like what is the specific thing that they did or did not do andwhat are the actual specifics of that, right? And then also, very importantly, what was the impact of that behavior? and framing that back, whenever you can frame it back to something that they're a part of, right? So it's not just like, Oh, because you didn't do this, like I looked bad. Like, but if you can frame it as this is how this impacts our overall team, or this is how this could impact the way that you're seen by these VPs who could have a role in you getting promoted down the line.

Actually like giving the overall impact of it is super, super important.

Mike: Yeah.

That's so smart. 

Kristen: And I think also this is different. While we did like, talk about the feedback sandwich, um, and why it's bad. Also being balanced. So this, so the difference between being balanced, I think, and using that is it's not formulaic. You're doing, you're not like just giving positive feedback just to soften the blow of the constructive feedback, but acknowledging where there has been positive behavior, so that might be acknowledging like I know this is something you've been working on I've seen progress in this particular situation. Here's a situation where I think we could still see some improvement so so being fair and balanced about it and not like just dumping the negative on them,

Mike: Yeah.

Kristen: But there's a difference between that and the feedback sandwich.

I think it's important to note. And then the other two steps of this, I think we, we pretty much usually when we think about giving feedback, we usually focus on that presentation portion of it, but there, there's two other really important parts of this. So the next one is the exploration, which is when you're actually, you've delivered the feedback and you're, helping the receiver process that feedback.

So, that means active listening. checking yourself. Are you listening to understand their perspective? Or are you listening just to respond? Actually like putting yourself in the moment, listening to them, ask clarifying questions back to them. Paraphrase things they've said. So like what I'm hearing is you feel this way about this situation.

Mike: So there's a point in MBS is advice trap book where he talks about this as being a coach. It's all about them, right? Are you? Are you doing your active listening so that everyone knows you're active listening or you actually is it about them? And when it's about them, you can actually be, he says, you can be lazy.

You don't have to like, all about them understanding. It's about not about your show of you being the coach or you , giving the feedback. it's 100 percent focused on their needs. People can feel that.

Kristen: People absolutely feel it. Yeah. And they feel when you're not listening, or even if you're nodding and I'm like, is with my ADHD.

Oh my God. I'm like so good at nodding along and pretending I'm listening, but actually my attention is not on the person talking and I'm very aware of it. And so something I'm far from perfect at, but it is something that's it's obviously an important part of my job as a coach, so I have a lot of awareness of it, but it's really important.

People know, they pick up the subtle differences, like, even if you're nodding, they can tell if you're really listening. It's sub level, 

Mike: Well, there's, you know, I listen, but I also, I'm doing three other things. Like it helps me to listen. If I would just stare at you listening, I'm uncomfortable. I'm used to having, both arms are doing something different.

My brain is doing a third thing. I listen while doing other, I don't know. 

Kristen: Yeah, and

I guess,that's a whole other, listening is a whole other episode, really. But, yeah, so I think that the tactics, asking clarifying questions to make sure you understand what they're saying, what they're feeling about it, and paraphrasing the things they're saying are, like, really helpful tools.

And then, also, recognizing, if it's particularly difficult feedback or something that is hitting a particular nerve for the other person, if they are getting defensive, it's a really good indicator of this. But if they're defensive or just very emotional, like, you're just feeling that there's a lot of activation there, it might be better to take a pause.

And give them some time to just process on their own and then resume the discussion at a later time. So like saying like, you know, I can tell there's a lot of emotion around this. I want to give you some time to process this. So let's like, why don't think about this tonight and then we'll meet tomorrow morning to wrap up the discussion.

Mike: That's different than you not wanting to continue with the difficulty.

Yeah. And then there's some people, I've known people at work that they develop a very defensive persona in general. And it's because it's like a shield. If they're so difficult to talk to,

That's like, don't talk to me, you know? And most people will respect that because it's really hard to break through.

But you have to be willing to sit there 

Kristen: Yes, that is part of your job

Mike: You signed your offer

Kristen: as a leader, as a manager, yes, it is part of your job.

Mike: that in the 

Kristen: Doesn't mean it's fun.

Yeah, and then the final piece of this, which is also a really important one not to skip.

Once you've done the processing, and you've put the attention on them, like it's made it all about them, right? And they've, they've had a chance to process the feedback and you understand where they're coming from. The final piece of this is the action.

Because if feedback is not actionable, then what is the point, right? But the key in here is that it needs to actually be the receiver who is committing to the actions and leading to the actions. So this is coaching, right? Like you can guide them in taking the actions and they can make a conscious choice to not work on the feedback that you gave them. But, but acknowledging that that is a choice, right? There could be consequences for, for making that choice. But the idea is like, they are committing to it, to doing it or not doing it, versus you just assigning them what to work on.

Making sure they understand the potential consequences, of taking or not taking actions and making sure that they feel empowered to choose for themselves. This isn't just you shoving down their throat. This is like, you know, that if you don't do this, this is the consequences that could happen, but it is ultimately your choice to actually take this action. And then the last piece having them clearly outline preferably in writing having them like clearly outline their next steps and then take ownership of it. This is not you continuously following back up on that with them I mean you should you should follow up with them. but it should be something that where they are owning it like you are not the owner of it They are the owner of it and like they're the one who owns their own action plan,

Mike: I love that. 

Kristen: Right? Yeah, you don't need to like take that on for, I mean, it doesn't mean you don't care. It doesn't mean that you're not talking about it in meetings, like in your one on ones and such, but when you're thinking about who is 

Mike: accountable, for 

Kristen: yeah, they are the actual owners of

Mike: People, People run the accountability 100 percent 

Kristen: So yeah, so that is my model. I think obviously you may notnecessarily need to go through all these steps for

Mike: These are cool. I'm literally trying to screenshot your delivering feedback model. I'm Struggling.

Kristen: I can also send it to

Mike: Could you send it to me? I doesn't seem compatible with 

Kristen: But yeah, but it's, and I think this is especially like the conversations that you're like, this is challenging. You're nervous about it going in, like going through this process. And I think the other thing to note is true with like potentially high conflict or like just difficult conversations in general, if you're feeling nervous about it, write out your talking points ahead of 

Mike: write it down now

Kristen: and even rehearse it.

Mike: I rehearse it. 

Kristen: Because you'll feel so much more prepared going into it. And like, you may not need to do that for the rest of time. Like the more these kind of conversations you have, like they'll get easier. Right. You may not need to do like the same level of preparation.

Mike: I write it down, especially when I know the employee is defensive. 

Kristen: Yes. 

Mike: Cause I don't know if it's gonna go off the rails and I'll just read through it and I'll let them simmer with it and at least I got it out, and because it raises your own adrenaline,to be in those, scenarios with people when when your body's producing adrenaline, behavior is actually, it's an altered state.

Yeah. 

Kristen: Yeah. Yep. For sure.So yeah. So those are some, some best practices you can use to go about having these conversations, which are, again, unless you are you know, have some like sociopathic tendencies, or other things like that. it's probably not going to be fun for you, but I, but you can get to a point where it's less painful because you've done it.

You've done it before, you know what to expect. You've dealt with different reactions in different situations and your confidence in handling it will grow. And I think likewise, if you are. if you are a little bit overconfident about giving feedback, but you're not necessarily considering these different elements, like particularly the active listening part and the them taking commitment of it.

And then also really spending time making sure that this is the right moment and knowing your intentions going into the conversation. If you're kind of skipping over those steps, that's really important to recognize as well. And to think about what are situations where It could have gone differently and better if you had maybe implemented some of those steps.

Mike: I love this. And I, I'm kind of inspired. I have, I'll use this as my leadership moment next time, but you know, we started this podcast to help others to help young leaders or help, regardless of where you are, we say, but this is helping me. I can see the type of like coach that I want to be to get there, it can be difficult, right? You're used to doing things a certain way. Michael Bungay Stanier calls it the control it, tell it or save it responses.

And I've very much identify with all of those, but I'm pretty inspired to like level up my game here. 

Kristen: I love it. Well, that's like the best leaders. It doesn't matter what level you're at.

Like you always are continuing to try to be better and to keep working on things, because nobody is good at all of this stuff. Like it's impossible. We all, everybody has areas that they can improve upon is how they show up as a leader. Yeah, that's self awareness and that growth mindset are so 

Mike: They say that like in jujitsu, you know, it takes average 10 years to get a black and then they say okay, ready to start.

Kristen: Mmm.that's a little intimidating,

It's so intimidating. Cool. do this for 10 years and then I can start. Okay. But

Mike: You know, I think it means, I think, ever more subtle, ever more refined, like, I don't say magical, but like, the special sauce that only comes with time and effort. 

Kristen: Yep. Yeah. 

Mike: saying, Chinese saying is from the to the natural, and from the, from the natural to the supernatural.

Kristen: Well, I think this is a good place to wrap. we would.

Mike: done. She's done with my talking. She's got a long trip and she's like, I have to pack.

have so much to to do. I have to edit the show. You're going to take a nap.

nap. Please quiet. Okay. I have the emotional intelligence to recognize it. Okay, let's

Kristen: okay, all right,

Mike: I love 

Kristen: you

I love you.thank you guys so much for listening. If you have any requests for future topics, please let us know. We're definitely open to that, and different books and things like that too.

We would love to hear it. And yeah, thank you guys. And we will see you next week.

Mike: Thank you everyone. 

Kristen: The Love and Leadership Podcast is produced and co-hosted by me, Kristen Brun Sharkey and co-hosted by Mike Sharkey. Please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. We can't stress enough just how much these reviews help. You can follow us on LinkedIn under Kristen Brun Sharkey and Michael Sharkey, and on Instagram as loveleaderpod.

You can also find more information on our website, loveandleadershippod.com. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you again next week.