Breaking Barriers and Fostering Inclusion with Melissa Jurkoic, CXO at Thynk

Kristen: Welcome to Love and Leadership, the podcast that helps you lead with both your head and your heart, plus a bit of humor. I'm Kristen Brun Sharkey, a leadership coach and facilitator.

Mike: And I'm Mike Sharkey, a senior living and hospitality executive. We're a couple of leadership nerds who also happen to be a couple.

Kristen: Join us each week as we share our unfiltered opinions, break down influential books, and interview inspiring guests.

Mike: Whether you're a seasoned executive or a rising star, we're here to help you level up your leadership game and amplify your impact.

Kristen: Hello and welcome back to Love and Leadership. I'm Kristen. 

Mike: I think it's just Leadership now. We removed the Love part since I wasn't in this episode.

Kristen: You also don't have a name now, also.

Mike: That escalated quickly. Uh, yes, welcome back to Love and Leadership. 

Kristen: Well, okay. So that is Mike, by the way. 

Mike: I am Mike.

Kristen: Since he refuses to say his thing. Um, yeah, 

So we have a really awesome guest interview today with Melissa Jurkoic.

Mike: That you did without me. 

Kristen: So for context, everybody, this interview had been moved a couple of times already. It got scheduled for a day that Mike ended up having to go into work because, you

Mike: because I work a full time

Kristen: leadership

Mike: that works.

Kristen: Well, this was a Saturday.

Mike: I did have to work on a Saturday. 

Kristen: But, um, we mutually, you wouldn't know it was mutual, but we mutually decided that I would just do the interview and then we would do a little bit of a longer intro to talk about the interview with Mike. But, you know, 

he forgets this, and

Mike: I did agree to it. It's fine. 

You know, especially the interview., So it was a great interview. Uh, she's very impressive. The things that really struck me were, she came up in tech in a time when I can't imagine how hard of a time she had being taken seriously in, in these, these rooms of power as a woman.

And she noted that she had a mentor that put her in the room and kept her there and, and guided her. And I thought that was really beautiful. And it's something that I am personally passionate about. She, she really is now. I think it's a non profit right where they

Kristen: Yeah, it's like a nonprofit initiative that,

Mike: It's a non profit initiative that that hooks people up with mentors. And you know now she's she's giving back which is I think a big purpose of this podcast for me.

I've had many teachers and mentors put up with me at a time when they probably shouldn't have and the only way I can say thank you to them is to try and do the same thing. So I thought that was great. She's very humble. She's very like open to learning and making mistakes and growing and adapting.

Uh, other things I loved, you know, she, she has a part where she talks about meeting people where they're at. Which I think is a really powerful concept. 

You know, she, she really talked about like her style of leadership. It's not like a button down. It's very authentic. And she talked about being true to yourself, trusting your intuition, even when you have what they call nowadays haters. Uh,, so I think that's just so important, you know, as you walk a leadership journey, you're going to have a lot of people that naysay that aren't on board that think you're doing the wrong thing. And it's great to listen to lots of voices, but ultimately you have to trust your, your intuition. I also loved her, her discussion of boundaried vulnerability. 

I thought it was a really balanced take on, what that looks like. We're about to do an LBC for Dare To Lead, which is predicated on vulnerability at

Kristen: by Brene Brown.

Mike: By Brene Brown, 

Kristen: Yeah, it really leads in 

Mike: really leads in really nicely, you know, and she talks about like, well, you know, you can go into your team and be like, Hey, I'm not having my best day.

I'm having some personal problems or whatever. Like, I'm sorry if I'm short. And then not necessarily tell them exactly the argument that you had with your wife or necessary, you know? 

Some very serious personal matters but not necessarily burdening your team with the details and emotions of it. So a boundary vulnerability is is very smart.

I loved it. I think she was super cool.

You know, you guys didn't get into any of the like nitty gritty of the tech stuff and the only problem is she's in tech for hospitality. So I probably would have had some nerd questions for her. Uh, you know, but

I loved it. She has a very human centric approach to leadership and, you can be authentic and still get results. So I think I love this overall direction of leadership that we're talking about and going in. You're going to get better results when you let people lead in an authentic way. 

Kristen: Thank you for sharing your, your thoughts from it. I totally agree. I think there was, there was so much in here and I hope it will be inspirational and practical to our listeners. 

Mike: A lot of good stuff. I was inspired. Yeah.

Kristen: Awesome. Well, with that, we are going to go ahead and start the interview. Thank you guys so much for listening and I hope you enjoy it.

Mike: Thank you, everyone.

Kristen: I am really excited to be here with Melissa Jurkoic, and we are going to be talking about all sorts of fun things today, but just a little bit about Melissa first. She is the Chief Experience Officer at Thynk. She's been in the tech industry for over 25 years, primarily in hospitality tech.

And she's really passionate about increasing the representation of women in leadership and tech. And she's done a lot of volunteer work and speaking with a host of organizations to, to support this. And she's also the co founder of Diversify Thinking, which is an initiative dedicated to advancing inclusion from dialogue to implementation and fostering diversity of thought, which we will talk about more as well.

So Melissa, thank you so much for being here.

Melissa: Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm super excited to be here today.

Kristen: Awesome. Well, I, I'd love to dig into your, your background a little bit more. We, you and I are both very passionate about empowering women leaders in tech. It's a big part of the, the work that I do. And I think we actually met through, I believe Women Tech, which is one of the many organizations out there that's doing great work to support this stuff.

And I think you're a really awesome role model for what that progression can look like, because you, you started with a degree in computer science as like a junior software engineer, and then you worked all your way up to the C level now where you, where you are today. So like, what, what were some of the, the elements that were really critical for your success along that journey?

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well, resilience for sure. Um, uh, also, uh, and maybe a bit of stubbornness on top of that, I think is a big deal. Right. So, um, I won't lie that there was many, many people. Um, you That questioned why, even in through my collegiate career, right? Like if I was on the right path or why was I doing that?

This seemed like the harder path, you know, fun story. I originally was an English major, right? Like, um, my, my love growing up was writing creative writing and, um, like creativity through delivering stories. Like that was like such a thing that I was so passionate about. Um, so I really, you know, I, I wrote poetry as a young, you know, Um, girl and continue to do some of that creative writing now.

But that was like really my focus. So when I went through high school, like preparing for college and when I applied to colleges, I was applying to like liberal arts schools and, you know, really focused around that. I was actually thinking I would be a journalist, funny. And I had no interest in really the tech space at all.

I was always good at math, but I was like, yeah, whatever. Like, just, you It came easy to me. It wasn't something I was like super passionate about or interested in. Um, and then I happened to take one compu like, at the time I'm dating myself, but I've been around for a while. So, we didn't have, like, I learned typing on a typewriter, okay?

Like, we didn't have computers at school. Um, so there was just one room with computers and I took a programming class and I think, you know, it ignited this, idea in me that technology was a path to creativity that I never even imagined possible, and it was just so not accessible to us then as it is now, um, that it just wasn't an option.

And so all of a sudden I was like, Oh, geez. I actually think this is what I want to do. So that launched like, honestly, a whole new path for me going into college. And, and that was a big life lesson for me that I had to carry through my whole career. And my professional journey was, um, people are going to like, kind of look at you sometimes and sort of give you that cocked head puppy look.

Like, what are you? What? Like, what are you doing? And so that happened throughout, you know, again, my collegiate career. Um, I was usually the only woman in my classes. There wasn't, um, a lot of support for people that were trying to go from, like, liberal arts to engineering and physical sciences. It was actually quite the opposite.

It was really, really hard. So I could have a whole podcast with you just about how hard that was and how I've like been super passionate about going back to the college I graduated from and helping them understand how they need to create pathways, especially for women and girls, because they're going to lose them if they don't make it, um, not easy.

I don't think like carve an easy path and like give them special entry to these things, but, but provide support, you know, and I think that's, that's what I'm really passionate about is the support that people need. Like you mentioned inclusivity and things like that. And meet people where they are, right?

Like it's okay if you thought you were on one path and for whatever reason that trajectory changed for you, right? Something ignited a passion that you didn't identify before. Let's be open minded to that as, as like a community, as you know, a world, right? And like provide support for people. Because that's when amazing things happen.

So I didn't have a lot of that support, you know, through that path. And I think that's what really created that resilience and maybe stubbornness where when someone was like, you know, it would be a lot easier if you went down this road.And sometimes I look back and I'm like, God, that would have been a lot easier, but I always chose the path that was less traveled.

Right. I always was like, well, no, because like, this is what I actually want. Like, this is what feels right to me. And I think that's what I just followed throughout my career. Um, So I think that was a huge key for success for me personally was just realizing that I was going to hit those obstacles and sometimes there wasn't going to be the support system there to really help me get through and I might have to actually create it.

So I think that's also, speaks to why I've been so open to volunteer and mentor and do these things is because I recognized there was so little support and that when you don't have those support systems, if you see that they are, there's need for it and you believe in it, and you can't find it, then you should be part of creating it.

And I think that's, that's something that I've tried to hold true to. Um, and then the other thing that's been like, if, One of the key to my success personally was having someone that sponsored me.

And I didn't even realize that's what he was doing. And yes, it was a male, right? I didn't realize that's what he was doing until now. In my much more mature, mature years looking back, I realized, wow, he put me in the room. I did the work. I did all the hard work. Um, he didn't like make it easy for me, but he put me in the room multiple times.

To the point where I look back and I'm like, wow, I was in the room, the only woman and also like surrounded by like C level executives really early in my career. Where, if he hadn't have put me there, I would never have been invited.I didn't realize then, I also was almost like obstinate then, I was like, why am I going to this thing, like, why are you, you know, like, I look back now, I'm like, wasn't exactly like, grateful in that time, I was sort of even, a little bit puzzled, like, why are you sending me to this thing?

But when I look back now, I'm like, wow, he really, he really shaped me as a professional, instilled confidence in me and saw something in me that I didn't see. Um, even with all my stubbornness and my perseverance and resilience, he really did, do a lot for me in my career that launched me, I think, and created confidence that I maybe never wouldn't otherwise have had, um, in the professional space.

So those are like the two keys for at least personally my own career path and success.

Kristen: I love that. There's so much good stuff in there. And I think it's also a really good perspective on like, what is being a sponsor to, to somebody as an executive, right? I think having sponsors isn't even something that was being talked about that much, like, like 10, 15 years. I feel like I really

Melissa: Definitely not. Yeah.

Kristen: more recently.

And it's something I wish I knew in my career earlier, that this is something that you should be looking for and, and seeking out if you're not getting it naturally. And, but I love the idea that like this sponsor is somebody who gets you into the room and then it's up to you to perform once you're there.

But having that person to actually get you into that room, is so critical for, for success.

Melissa: Definitely. Definitely.

Kristen: Yeah. The resilience is also very key. And, um, I think you also had like a driving force for like why you were doing this and when then in going by it, feeling right to you. And that was something that helped get you through those parts that were difficult.

Melissa: Yeah, I think I found like people would challenge my want right? They would be like, well, why do you want to do this? Like it doesn't make any sense.

I don't know. It just feels right. Like it was something, it was like something bigger than me.

There's something that's drawing me to this and I couldn't let it go. And again, maybe it's stubbornness. I don't know. Like maybe I just got it set in my head and I was like, you're, and part of it was, it's like, I really lean towards challenges, right? So when people are being like, almost telling me you can't do it, or you, you won't be successful.

I was like, Oh, Oh, I will. Like

you, yeah, you watch, you just sit back and watch. It's going to be, you know, very painful, but I'm going to make it happen. And I, you know, I have stories like that, even throughout my career where people. You know, I was talking to someone just yesterday, as a matter of fact, and we were talking about, when you think of yourself, as someone that can sort of see a vision ahead,

Like imagining what's possible versus just looking at what's tangibly concrete in front of you. Which is also interesting from an engineering perspective, because I think engineers are really typically thought of as like not abstract thinkers, like very concrete, like, right, mathematical, analytical, um, and Ithat same person that, you know, sponsored me and put me in the room.

We used to joke that he and I were like, we're technical business people because we couldn't like fit in a box. It wasn't like, Oh, you're just technical or Oh, you're just like, Into business strategy, and you could talk about that. We sort of like blurred the lines. And when you blur the lines, it makes other people really uncomfortable. And I think, um, I sort of always sat in that space where even like again, even in that college experience, I was making professors and advisors really uncomfortable because they didn't know how to help me because they didn't know how to help me. They didn't understand what I was doing or what I was looking ahead to, like I saw a path.

It was really clear to me. I knew what I wanted and I was on my way to get it. And they couldn't, they couldn't see that with me. They're like, yeah, but that just doesn't make sense what you're trying to do. Like, it's just, it's, it's not, we, we've never seen someone do that. And I was like, cool, watch you're about to, right.

And, and again, I've experienced that myself a lot in, in my career is where I'll like have an idea or I'll like see something and I'm talking to whether it's executive stakeholders, you know, earlier in my career or even colleagues and often found, you know, partly maybe because I was a woman, you know, that was a big part I felt like almost like dismissed, you know, snubbed in some cases even laughed at like, Oh, that's ridiculous.

That's like a ridiculous idea. Like, Oh, ha ha. That's so cute. Um, yeah. And then I would be like, you know what, I'm just going to do it anyway. And when I was talking to this person yesterday, I said, it's been always like this drive inside of me, do it anyway. If you believe it and you don't do it, it's always going to be like hanging over your head.

And I think that's, that's another like driver for me is when I feel very strongly about something again, maybe that's a stubbornness coming through, but when I feel very strong, it's really hard for me to like, let it go. Like, I'm like, no, I just, I really believe. That's something that can be true.

Like we can make this happen. I believe in it. Um, and I'm willing to give it a shot even if it fails, right? Like, cause I'm like, I can almost see it. Like, it's like right there. And then I get frustrated because I'm like, how can you not see that? And that's been a big learning curve too, right? Throughout my career is it takes other people time to get there.

And sometimes what I've learned the hard way, quite frankly, is that you have to actually create the thing that you have that vision and you have, because some people need to actually have it be tangible before they believe it. They can't see it in this visionary aspect. 

And I find that's a big challenge, um, even in leadership. You know, even where I sit now, right?

Like there's a lot of conversation, even with my own leadership team now, where I sometimes feel like, and I, I even, I'm open at this stage of my career and joke about it. Like I'm like the black sheep, like I'm a, I feel like I'm always like the opposing opinion. Like I'm always like on, you know, but, but I do, I feel really strongly about paths and how to get there.

But I've had to come to realize um again It's a real hard way is you have to actually create it and prove it So that people can see it before they're on board.And that's, that's tough, right? Because then you're investing a lot of emotion, a lot of time, a lot of energy into something that, you know, it might not even work. Like it might not even be the right idea, but you felt really passionate. You have to see it through. And then, um, my, my actual experiences almost.

I would say 95 percent of the time you get there and all of a sudden, everyone has like amnesia about when they were like dismissing you laughing about it. Um, and then they're like, not always accepting credit, but sometimes accepting credit for that idea. Like they were part of the process and it's, it's like, I always think it's pretty amusing.

I sit back. I'm like. Oh, interesting. I feel like you were like completely against this whole thing or like thought it was a big joke or like, yo, that's really cute. Like, that's just ridiculous. And then when you get there and they see how awesome it is, they're like, Oh, yeah, this is great. What? So, um, so yeah, I think that's, that's a big thing too, is like do it anyway.

And like really believe in yourself and just do it anyway. I'm like, what's the worst that's going to happen?

Oh, you're going to fail. Great. You're going to learn.

Kristen: Yep. For sure. Yeah. I mean, it sounds like you have a strong connection to your intuition and that like knowing that like, this is something that is worth trying. Uh, that's, that's something I really am passionate about in my work too is helping people build that connection to their intuition because so often it's we're just plagued by self doubt and the opinions of other people, our inner judge are like natural cognitive biases and there's so many things happening in your brain but like that feeling of knowing.

When you can really connect to it is so powerful and is usually right, but at least as you said, even if it doesn't work out, at least you know that it was worth trying.

Melissa: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I think and also like the flip side of that too, because I'd even challenge you there is being comfortable being uncomfortable, like, because I think that especially as a leader, it's really tough. I see, I see this a lot of people not wanting to admit they don't know.

And I'm like, but you don't like there's so many things. I mean, there's so many things. I don't know, right? Like I'm still learning at this ripe age where I'm at right now, right? I think there's still so much to learn Um, I don't know everything,

Kristen: even in my current role or like about leading people I learn stuff all the time.

Melissa: You know, I just read Simon Sinek's Leaders Eat Last I learned a ton in that book. It was very validating in some sense. Like it spoke to me in terms of like what I believe around servant leadership, but then also, like I learned things in there. And I was like, and he actually added a, a special,update in this last publication for millennials.

And how to, like, lead teams of millennials. So that was really interesting. So I was like, Oh, this is very, like, relevant to me right now. Um, so again, like, super excited to read that and like, learn more. And regardless of how long you've been, like, leading teams or in a position of leadership. Like you can always learn and guess what like the people you're leading are a new generation. Like who you were leading before if you're in still in leadership that those people are going to change. And so you have to adapt how you lead because again like meet people where they are. Because the people we're leading now are not the people we were leading 10 years ago their their their wants their needs and their uh perspective is very different.

Kristen: Yeah. Absolutely true. How do you kind of help foster that, that culture where it's kind of safe for people to go with the thing that even if not everybody's necessarily on board with it and like feel like they're supported in doing so.

Melissa: Yeah. I mean it's It's really interesting, because especially when you're a leadership team, like, so if you have like your, your bubble, if you will, like your team that you're working with, like within that context, um, supporting them is easy, right? Because like you're, you're giving them the goal and you set the direction and you, you let them have creative freedom to get to the outcome that you're seeing, right?

And you get them excited about it and they're all willing to go. I think it's like creating a safe space, but also keeping your boundaries clear so that like other people in, in an organization and other leaders, you sort of have to sell them, like. Exercise patience. It's coming.

You got to trust. So I think part of that is like really leaning into trust and, um, early, like when you haven't been with a company for a while, that's very tough, right? Because what is trust based on? It's based on time in a relationship with another person. And right now, today, with like remote completely distributed companies.

Trust is the hardest thing, right? Like, I think this is where we're struggling. Even our own company, quite frankly, right? They're globally distributed. It's 75 people. It's, you know, it's hard to build trust. Over this medium, it's really tough. So the more that we can be in person, which, you know, we try to get together in person and the more that we can spend time, even one on one, even if it is virtual, just like really listening.

And, you know, understanding each other, that's where trust is built. So early on, not going to lie, super difficult to build momentum and get people on board and create a safe space for like the people you're working with to like do it anyway and push through. Um, Because if you're dealing with other personalities and people that don't see the same vision immediately and you don't have the trust, then it's, it's kind of a fight, right?

And that's, doesn't feel good to anybody. Um, so, but that's, that's sort of what I've experienced. Again, my own experience, that's, that's, yeah. You know what you have to do. It's a period of proving yourself. And I could go, we could have a whole podcast about why women still have to prove themselves in a professional context.

Um, but, but especially in leadership, I think that's still very much the case. Um, and I think, you know, I would love to say that trust was a currency that was earned equally for women in leadership as it is for men. But it isn't, it just isn't like we have a, it's, it's more of an uphill battle for us to get to that level of trust because of this whole idea that we just don't earn in that currency on day one.

It's a universal bias that exists globally, I'm here to tell you. It's not just in North America. It's, it's definitely, um, crosses cultural boundaries. So it, but again, like, I don't, it's never for me personal, you know, it's more, um, I, I do have respect for the fact that society has created this construct.

And so that's what we're operating within. It's, you know, obviously you take it personally because it feels very personal, but then I also will remind myself, you know what, this is. This is universal. It's, it's not, it's not really about me. It's about a bigger thing and a system that's creating this bias.

Right. And I think that 

Kristen: Right.

Melissa: um, that can be overwhelming and depressing, but it also can be empowering because then it's, It's less about like feeling defeated and more about like being part of a system that's going to be different. And like, how can I show them? Like you can trust me, like you were going to get results and I need you to be patient.

And, I wish I could say it's gotten easier. It hasn't. I think that the time that you stay in an organization, you build that trust. People see results and then they're like, okay, it's, this is what she is doing. I get it. I've seen her do it before. So I believe, but in the beginning, it's super hard. So I think again, like it's sort of twofold, like inwardly, if you're leading a team, creating that culture of, um, sort of safety autonomy, like being able to deliver, like, let's do it anyway.

We're gonna, we're gonna push through it. Like, don't pay attention to the naysayers. I think if you're passionate about it and you're authentic, that honestly, I feel like that part's easy. Right? Like, because you're just, it's really like getting a group of people excited about doing something and giving them the freedom and power to find their own path to get there, but being super crystal clear about where we're going.

It's the other part when you have, you have others that are like in the organization. Again, like if you're a single entrepreneur and you're bootstrapped and you have your own team, I feel like you've got all this autonomy and it's, it's hard work for sure. Right? But it's like, you have less of the noise.

The minute you have investors or the minute you're working in the construct of like a corporate or even, you know, a startup with multiple departments and leadership and, you know, you're not the founder, right? You're working with founders. That's where all that conflict comes from. So that's where, for me, personally, again, like, that's where the resilience and the stubbornness has proved really good for me.

Kristen: Because, like, I've been there. I've been in the places where people didn't trust that I was going to meet the outcome that I was telling them I was going to meet. And I've shown them. So. I lean into that, like from that, like how I'm, how I'm showing up with other leaders in the room, how I'm creating again, like that boundary or protection space for my own team. And I just have to operate that way. Yeah, for sure. And you do note there's differences between how you're leading your own team and then how you're managing. your stakeholders and, and peer leaders and leaders above you too, right? For all of the challenges that, that come with that when, especially when you have like conflicting agendas.

Melissa: Exactly. Yeah. And it's tough, you know, like I still struggle with it, honestly. Um, and some of the things that I really struggle with, again, because, I've learned that the easiest, the easiest way to lead, that sounds really crazy to say that, but the easiest way to lead, at least for me, is to just be really genuine and authentic, right?

Um, and sometimes that's exposing things that other people aren't comfortable from a leadership team, exposing to your team, right? Like, well, you should, you should be the filter for them. You should, you know, I did that for a while. I, you know, in different leadership roles and it never felt right to me.

Because I felt like I was like forgive me like kind of full of it. I'm not really good at bullshit. So I was like, I just I was like, oh, yeah And I just and I honestly was like, I don't think I'm doing this well this leadership thing when I do that because I'm not giving the people that I'm working with that are, you know, working for me, if you will, but like with me, I'm not giving them the opportunity to help me when I'm filtering out, like, and I'm just kind of staying surface level.

I'm like, I'm not building real relationships. I'm not really building trust. It's very fictitious what I'm doing because I'm sort of like screening out the problem areas and I'm like, oh, just focus here. And people aren't stupid, right? Like, especially in smaller companies,Even, even in a remote, fully remote company, they feel things like they, they, it's, it could be in the tone of a Slack they get from somebody, you know, and they're like, Oh, I wonder what's going on there on that team.

Like, Oh, is there trouble brewing? You know, like it could be anything. It could be something that someone says in an all hands meeting and they walk away from that and they're like, That felt different than what Melissa said in our team meeting on Monday or whatever, you know, and whenever there isn't like consistency or continuitypeople are like whether they know it consciously or not their subconscious picks it up and then they something doesn't feel sit well with them.

And so I've always felt like if I'm not being honest, even, even more so, I guess, in the tougher times when things aren't going well, it hasn't served me and it's been really, I've not been a, the best version of a leader in those, in those spaces. And I feel like what I've learned is that when I've been able to just be very open, I find that my team offers help.

Like they're actually like, and in, and in the best case scenarios, when you have like a really high performing team, the first thing they ask you is, Oh, geez, Melissa, how can I help with that? Like, should I, should I reach out to so and so the other leader, uh, you know, for customer success? And should I talk to them?

Like there's there's something that we can do on the product side to help them or like, and they start to like, really, Because they're they're passionate about what you're doing and then they feel part of it and they really genuinely want to solve the problem. Um, And so that's been a learning for me, and I still struggle with it sometimes, right?

Like when things are not going well, and like, we're like, what's the communication that we're going to agree upon or align upon at the leadership level? To me, I would love to just always say it's the simplest thing, like, the communication we should align upon is exactly what's happening.

Kristen: hmm. Mm

Melissa: Like, and we shouldn't, like, create a facade, we shouldn't sugarcoat or soften the language. I mean, we don't have to be, like, harsh, but we should be professional and honest, you know? And, like, if there's things that are happening or things that we're not doing that we thought we were going to do, like, it's natural that people are going to wonder why, and we should just be proactive and open about it.

And I think,to me that's always been like the hardest thing, I think, in leadership, especially like even in various size companies, too.

Kristen: hmm.

Melissa: And I've always respected leaders that were not afraid to just share the ugly stuff sometimes. And like, not put the burden on you, because that's the boundary, right?

Like there's this like, I think we even talked about it last time we spoke, like boundaried vulnerability, right? It's not like I'm making it your problem. Yeah. But I'm also not hiding the problems from you, right? I'm sharing vulnerably, like we're struggling with this right now. This is what we're working through.

And then your first question as someone on my team is probably how does that impact me?

Kristen: Right.

Melissa: Like, does what she's saying impact me? And then my job as a leader is to make sure you understand how it does or doesn't impact you. And that's where it gets like really tricky too. Right? Because especially in the cases where, you know, if you've ever been in the experience, where your organization has to change, sometimes because of economic conditions, that's tough.

It's really, really, really tough. Um, and I found myself, you know, historically, when I have to have those conversations, I literally will lead with, I'm hating that I'm having this conversation with you right now. Like, I'm just very honest. I'm like, this is This is like my least favorite part of my job.

This is not something that I wanted to be doing, but I mean, honestly, I've had to do it in my career. And it's, it's, uh, one of the prices you pay when you rise to leadership is that at some point, whether it's for economic reasons or performance reasons, but it never feels good.

Like those conversations never feel good, even if they're, warranted. Like, even if you're like, yeah, like we tried to work through this performance issue with you and we couldn't get past it. Like, so, you know, it's time for you to move on. It's still like those conversations. God, they're so tough. So 

Kristen: Yeah, Absolutely. I agree. I mean, I, in general, like, transparency is something I feel so strongly about it because I feel like there's this old model of leadership where you're supposed to be, like, buttoned up and everything comes down through this, like, corporate filter and people don't respond well to that because, as you said, they know even if it's remote.

They will pick up if something's happening. And if you're not being honest with them, it creates like a tension that's really distracting from everything else, even if like they don't consciously know it's there.

Melissa: Yeah, right. It's like their subconscious picks it up. And even if they don't know why they feel not at ease, they do. Right. And it affects their productivity. Um, it affects how they interact with other people on the team. And then like, it's, it can, it can unravel really quickly. And I've seen it happen in some cases, unfortunately.

And I mean, again, like being completely transparent here. I feel like there were cases when I look back, that I was part of that problem, you know, in my career, and I could have done better and been more like upfront. About what was happening or how I was even feeling about what was happening. Cause by the way, when there's things going down, leaders feel bad too.

You know, like they're, they're struggling too. We're human, right. And. If you have established that trust with your team, they feel it, they feel it from you, even when you're trying to, you know, show up, you know, with your happy face and like positive attitude, they, they smell it from a mile away, if you've built like strong relationships of trust and transparency with them. 

That's why I've learned, you know, it's more important for me to have like authentic relationships with people that I work with than to have to like save face or keep up facade in the negative times.

Kristen: Absolutely. And I love your concept of boundaried vulnerability, where, as you said, you're not making it a burden for your team by, by sharing things with them. Can you kind of talk a little bit more about that and like what that, what that means to you?

Melissa: Yeah, it's, I would say it's a, it's a slippery slope sometimes. Right. Um, but like, for me, it's,example, like being okay that like, you're having a bad day, right. Like it, but like, they don't have to try to solve your problems, right.

It's not their problems. It's just like, if you're showing up for your team and you're not in a good head space, I think being transparent about like, hey, I'm dealing with some, even if it's personal stuff, right? Not like unloading on them about your personal stuff, but being like very transparent about like, hey, listen, like if for some reason today, if I am short or I come across as like not having a lot of patience, here's some things that are going on for me.

So like, having, asking them to have grace for you, um, I think, like, to me that's also boundaried vulnerability, right, like, I'm sharing, there's some things going on with me for, you know, personal reasons, but I'm not sharing, like, maybe even, like, the details, but then if somebody was to ask, and, like, I would be open to sharing some of that, but I think, again, it's, like, not offering more, you know, without them asking. 

It's like recognizing that if I share too much it has an impact on them. I can think of a very specific example and I won't mention her, but I was talking to her one day and I think I was maybe on the border of venting. Right? So if you start to feel like you're venting, that's not boundaried. You have, you have taken all the boundaries down now. You've opened the floodgates.

Like that is not boundary vulnerability. And I remember it and I can, and you know, it was, it was virtual, right? So she was on camera, like we are now. And I was looking at her and I saw her face change as I was talking.

And I was like, Oh, crap, I've gone too far. And not like inappropriate. Like I wasn't saying anything inappropriate. I was just sharing too much about something that was happening that was really negatively impacting me and all that. And it wasn't even impacting her. Like it wasn't. It was just a colleague talking to a colleague, if you will.

She did not report to me. She was not a subordinate. Um, we were just colleagues. 

And she was absorbing all that energy from me and immediately feeling what I was feeling as if it was happening to her, even though it had nothing to do with her, was not impacting her, and then feeling really bad about it. And I could see it like background processing, like, oh,this is our company, like, this is bad stuff that's happening.

And, oh, what, what if, and like playing the what if game in her head. And then I was like, shoot. So, so then I, you know, you try to fix it. And I think I kind of did an okay job, but that was a huge,lesson for me. In okay, also being really, really aware, self aware, but then aware of the other person and how they're receiving the information you're sharing. Um, so like less is more and being honest, but with, you know, guardrails around the amount of detail that you go into and recognizing that, especially when people aren't in a position of leadership and you're sharing something that maybe sounds a little scary, like how are they going to receive that?

Right,

How can I make sure that if what's the outcome I'm trying to reach, I'm trying to be transparent with them on what's happening with our company.

But then an outcome that I should always be worried about as a leader is. Are they going to walk away from this conversation being scared, concerned, you know, having worry about something they cannot control, and then if there is an action they can take, have I been clear with them about what that is?

Like, how can they help? And I thinkif someone can't help you, you have to ask yourself. Why am I telling them?

So I think that's like a, like, other way to look at even boundaried vulnerability. Like, if I'm telling somebody something and I feel like I'm being like raw, authentic, and genuine, and I'm just sharing why?

Like, why are you sharing that, you know? Is it to make you feel better? Because then maybe that's not boundaried vulnerability.Maybe that's you save that for your therapist, right? You know, like don't don't make your team become your your resident therapist .Again, like it's a slippery slope, right?

I think sometimes especially when we build really tight trusting relationships which should be the ultimate goal. Um, and sometimes they board they they border on personal friendships I have people on my team that I consider friends too, you know, like even though we have this like leader employee relationship, um And so we have a great dialogue where when her and I are talking, she'll say, okay, as a friend, not manager, can I tell you, so like, so, so I think that's also like an interesting way to exercise boundaried vulnerability when your relationships are really deep with people that you work with, too, because you sort of put context ahead of it.

And it's okay. Right. It's like, and I want to still have that relationship with her for an example, right? Like I don't want to not be able to have her share personal things with me. And I don't want to be able to not do that because we've known each other for so long. And, um, so we kind of put up like the, the, the road sign.

We're like, okay,

Kristen: Yeah, we're friends. We're talking as

Melissa: yeah, exactly,

Kristen: as colleagues or yeah.

Melissa: but I think that's like an example too, of like, how do you create those boundaries in the context? Because it's important.

Kristen: And I love the, the simplicity of asking yourself, like, why am I telling somebody this as a tool? Because, yeah, absolutely. Like, it's just something where you, you also as a leader, and I think you said this the last time we did an interview that like every leader should have a therapist. And I so strongly agree with that.

But like, part of that is you as a leader, you need your own outlet. So like, for this stuff and not using your team for that, but, but also there's legitimate reasons like letting people know like, Hey, if I'm short with you, it's absolutely not intentional. Here's just some context for what's happening right now, but not actually using them as an outlet.

That's a really important distinction. I think for leaders to understand.

Melissa: Yeah. And then even like, again, like with that particular individual, if there is something personal going on, I'll say to her like, as a friend, here's what's like, I will give her the like the detail because like, she's met my husband and my son, like, so like she knows, she knows things about my family.

Right. And so like I have shared some of that. Um, or like if big life things happen, I think it's okay. Like, I think we should create cultures where it's okay to share like these big life things are happening, both positive and negative.And you know, my son, it's been about a year now. My, my 25 year old was diagnosed with diabetes.

And he was in the ICU for a few days and it was like scary, huge life change, everything like that. I had new people that I had hired that were starting that day and I was like, had been up all night and I was supposed to, you know, and they were like based in Poland and I'm supposed to hop on this thing.

And I was like, I got on the phone with them with our video with them. And I said, I'm so sorry. I'm not going to be able to have our full one on one to welcome you to our company today, because I have to leave in 20 minutes. My son's in the ICU and like this whole thing. And it was like, what a crappy way to start a company.

Your boss be like, I'm going to be and I'm going to, by the way, be pretty unavailable for probably the next 48 hours as we like work through this. And I need to be talking to doctors and like figure this out. Um, yeah. But again, like I don't, I want to, that's the kind of

Kristen: You're human.

Melissa: that I feel like is important too.

Because if something like that happens for him or his family, I want him to feel like it's okay. Like I'm not a danger of losing my job because like some truly unexpected, you know, medical emergency happened across my family. And like, I want them to feel like they'll support, I'll support them just like I'll need support from them when things like this happen to me.

Right. So, um, yeah. Yeah.

Kristen: Yeah, I love it. There's so much good stuff here and the time is flying by. Um, before we kind of get into wrap up, I do want to give a moment just to talk about inclusivity from a leadership perspective and also your, your initiative, Diversify Thinking and, and how that all relates to that.

So do you want to talk about that for a

Melissa: Yeah, sure. I could talk about that all day. I know, I know, I know, I know.

Kristen: On all of this stuff.

Melissa: Uh, so, um, yeah, so Diversify Thinking actually. So it was born about five years ago now. Um, so initiative, my co founder, Candice and I, uh, we volunteered together. Across many different organizations, both globally, nationally and locally.

And we built some communities here. We really focused around the lens of like women in tech. That was really like you had mentioned in the in the intro, right? Um, obviously that's a demographic that's near and dear to my heart, right? Like I've been a woman in tech, obviously, my whole career. Um, so it's what we call, we often refer to the dimensions of diversity, right?

Because I think that there's, there's all sorts of dimensions.We always seem to talk about race and gender because, why? Because they're the things that we see and that can be easily measured. Um, whereas like, you know, neurodiversity is a little bit more challenging for people to, like, embrace, understand, um, even quantify, right?

Because it's not just about being on the autism spectrum. It could also be like you have anxiety, you have ADD, you have, but like there, there's so many different. You know, dimensions in that sometimes I find that either I may make people even more overwhelmed about diversity when I talk about that, but the point is just like we try to define diversity as I use a Malcolm Forbes quote, quite frankly, when I talk about it, which is like, it's the art of thinking differently together.

So it really is about diversity of thought., That's not that I'm ignoring all the things around, you know, racial bias and gender bias. And, and I'm not dismissing any of that. I'm just saying, like, how can we come together with a common definition? Because it is so overwhelming and confusing and there's nobody like people avoid the topics and they, they, Sometimes pretend it's not a problem because they don't know where to start.

So if we break it down to we're all human and each of us, regardless of our lived experience, the color of our skin, historical biases, current biases, um, the way our brain works, we all have brains and they all work in some capacity or another. And there's what, what I know. And what studies have shown is that amazing things happen.

When we're open to bringing people from all those different lived experience all that together because they do think differently and like to me. So that's diversity. It's the art of thinking differently together. So bringing people together. I find myself often feeling this like negative reaction to the term like minded.

Everyone uses it. I've used it too, right? But when I see that, I feel like there's this like, what is it called? Affinity bias, like people tend to gravitate towards people that are like them and things that are like them because we're human and that's where we're comfortable and nobody likes being uncomfortable.

Um, or well, maybe me, I guess. No, technically I don't, but I force myself to be, um, throughout everything I've done. Uh, so diversified thinking for us is really like, getting comfortable, getting uncomfortable, bringing people that think differently together. It came from years of us spending time both volunteering and creating spaces for women, mostly.

Again, typically in tech, but just women generally, professional women, getting them together. And we've had great experiences. We've created amazing communities. And we did that for like years. Like seven, five to seven years together and we, one day, I don't know, it felt like I woke up and I was like, well, crap, we'd like have been having these conversations for decades, like as a woman in this, and like, I told you about my collegiate experience, like early professional, like all the stuff, like we've been talking about, these are the same conversations, we're still having the same damn conversations.

Why are we still having the same conversations? And I was like, and then I started getting kind of angry. I was like, why are we having the same conversations? And why do we feel like we need ERGs and safe spaces and all the things? Because we haven't pulled the people together. Cause quite frankly, the bottom line is we know this, the majority of the people that are making decisions and are in positions of power are not the people that are in those ERGs and safe spaces.

So they don't even hear the problems. They don't even like, we're, we're like commiserating. We're creating communities of commiseration and support, which is amazing. Support is important. Right. And I talked about experiences where I didn't have support, but what, what the real like wake up call, I don't know, it sort of culminated for me was nothing's changing, like, it's like a lot of conversation, not a lot of action or minimal action.

And then COVID, like, set us back, like, so far, too, because then we saw, like, societal bias at play, right, like, who stayed home, the majority was women, women, like, in executive positions, left their careers, like, it was, because someone had to, schools were closed, daycares were closed, who was gonna, you know, it was just crazy, and we, like, set ourselves back, you know, I think it was, like, what I read somewhere, it was, like, we set ourselves back, like, five years, Like women in leadership or some crazy statistic like that.

And I was like, Oh, that's so sad. Um, so, but again, it's because we fall back on what we know and what we know as a society is. is exactly what we saw happen, right. It played out in real life. AndI wouldn't say that it was like a hundred percent right. There was certainly, you know, men that stayed home and like things like that, but, but I think we, we saw the impact.

It was clear and

The overall trend

Yeah. It was, and it was, and we were struggling so hard to change that, right. We were like, change the ratio, like all the things on International Women's Day and like all these things. And, And then it just sort of like imploded on us. I mean, the world did generally, but like, that was a big out, you know, falling out from that.

And I was like, it's like the easy button for us. as a society. And so again, I think it's, um, it was right before COVID that we launched to Diversify Thinking and started to hold like in person and then it all changed to virtual events. And then we even took a break from it for a little while. But, um, you know, I think that the focus for us is like, how can we bring people together, all dimensions of diversity that think differently, um, and move away from like the like minded safe spaces. As much to like force people to see that change has to happen. And the only way change happens is if the people that have the ability to make change happen are involved in the conversation. And so that that's really like the, the impetus of, of Diversify Thinking. And we've done some cool stuff.

Um, we've held mentoring programs, uh, with local universities. Um, in fact, when the university that I went to, and I went back and I was like, you should help us with this because this is a problem that you have where we matched people that were very different together. And, um, I will tell you, like, we did it for two years, uh, and it was first a pilot and then we tripled the size of the program and all of our mentors came back.

And I think that's, that's proof that it was something that was valuable in both directions, because listen, like I've been a mentor. And I volunteer my time and it does take time, like if you're serious about it and it is in addition to all the things you do and all the other aspects of your life. So the fact that we had were able to get, you know, three times more mentors to join based on the feedback from the first pilot and then the fact that this existing mentors returned all of them, um, told me we were doing something that a was very different and mattered and B it was valuable for them.

So interesting story about that as within the first week of pairing, we would get feedback both from mentees and mentors. And the university because they were like, I don't know if this is like it's what's not traditional and so they would come back and be like, I don't know why I'm like a black male mechanical engineering student and you paired me with a female white software architect.

Like, I don't get it. Like, I don't think she's going to be able to help me and we're like, cool, hang tight. Let it play out. Like, just give us some, give us a chance to show you. 

It was one of my favorite projects that we did because we did match people based on differences instead of likeness. And most mentoring programs, they usually go through like this, um, algorithm.

There's all sorts of mentoring software right now that do this and they match based on similar similarities. Um, okay, what are you looking to achieve? What have you achieved? Like this sort of stuff. Um, and I'll tell you that, that particular example of that, black male mechanical engineering student that we matched with the woman that had been in her career for like 35 years.

He was like a software, software architect and um, is amazing because I'm still very much connected with her and she stayed connected with him beyond graduation. And she actually recently helped his mother find a job. So I'm like, there's, you know, building relationships and trust. And the mutual benefits even she said, I learned so much from him and he gave a great testimonial at our closing event because we would hold an in person opening and closing event with our mentees and our mentors and he's, he got up and spoke and he was funny because he was, he's this big, tall, you know, black guy.

And he was like, I didn't think that I would get it. I was like, what, what am I to learn from this five foot two white chick. Like it was really funny and he was just really funny and very like raw direct. And he said, I learned so much from her and he's like, it was really amazing. And I've never been a part of something like this.

And so in the, you know, ment, mentees and mentors that I've seen, you know, years later have said, like, I've never been part of a mentoring program like yours.

Well, that's, that's such a cool concept because, like, mentoring is usually seen as this, like, one way, almost, like, hierarchical thing, right? But it's, like, this bi directional learning that is inherent in that kind of model is really cool.

yeah, exactly. And there should be right. Like, I, I think that I've grown so much as a leader because of the mentoring, not just like the side effect of leading people that are junior in their career. And that mentoring kind of comes along for it, but like that mentoring I've done outside of my traditional day job, I think has made me so much more, mature in my leadership skills, quite frankly.

Um, and I've learned so much. And I think it also is like, you realize, wow, I know stuff . These people, you know, are at different stages of their career are asking you questions. It's not always like early stage professionals. Like some of them were women, like I mentored a woman that had worked for like, 15 years in tech and she was at Netflix and she was experiencing like a conflict situation and she was struggling, you know, and like she was asking me stuff and I was like, Oh wow.

Yeah. I've actually been there. Let me talk to you through like how, how I approach that, what worked, what didn't mistakes I made. And you sort of reflect more when you're sharing it with somebody else. And like, it's sort of a thing that happened to you that unless you're diligent in therapy and you talk through all of your past trauma and scenarios, you may have never worked through it.

And so as you're sharing, your own lived experience with a mentee. You're like learning at the same time. You're like, oh my gosh. Yeah, I did like go through that and I learned and, and you're reflecting and realizing, okay, I could have done a lot better. Then like, and then now you're sharing that with this person that's going through it live and you're like, okay, don't do the thing I.

Like, stand your ground, like, feel comfortable where you are, like, speak up for yourself, and, you know, I didn't do any of that, but, like, this is what you should be doing, and, and stuff, so, so I think that's really cool, too.

Kristen: I, I love it. This is, this has been amazing, Melissa like, it almost, like, it pains me to end it because I feel like we could, we could go on for hours. There's just so much good stuff here. Um, but I, I really appreciate your time. I feel like our listeners are going to get a ton out of this. I know I definitely get a ton out of it.

So I, I appreciate it. And for our listeners, uh, we will include a link to Melissa's LinkedIn, as well as the website for diversify thinking. So if you want to find out more, you can check it out there. I know you guys have a big event actually happening the day after this is going to air. So I wish you the best with that.

And I, I can't wait to, to see what comes down the road for it.

Melissa: Awesome. Thank you so much. This was great.

Kristen: Awesome. Thank you so much, Melissa. And to our listeners, thank you guys so much for listening and we will see you next time. 

The Love and Leadership Podcast is produced and co-hosted by me, Kristen Brun Sharkey and co-hosted by Mike Sharkey. Please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. We can't stress enough just how much these reviews help. You can follow us on LinkedIn under Kristen Brun Sharkey and Michael Sharkey, and on Instagram as loveleaderpod.

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