A Leader’s Guide to Imposter Syndrome

[00:00:00] Kristen: Welcome to Love and Leadership, the podcast that helps you lead with both your head and your heart, plus a bit of humor. I'm Kristen Brun Sharkey, a leadership coach and facilitator.

[00:00:15] Michael: And I'm Mike Sharkey, a senior living and hospitality executive. We're a couple of leadership nerds who also happen to be a couple.

[00:00:23] Kristen: Join us each week as we share our unfiltered opinions, break down influential books, and interview inspiring guests.

[00:00:29] Michael: Whether you're a seasoned executive or a rising star, we're here to help you level up your leadership game and amplify your impact.

[00:00:38] \ 

[00:00:46] Kristen: Hello everyone. Welcome back to Love and Leadership. I'm Kristen.

[00:00:50] Mike: And I'm Mike.

[00:00:51] Kristen: And today we are talking about everyone's favorite topic, imposter syndrome, which brings up a lot of feelings, I think, for us and many people.

[00:01:02] And we'll talk about some of those today.

[00:01:05] Mike: Ah, the feelings.

[00:01:07] Kristen: All the feelings, yes. But before we get into our topic, we have our leadership moments.

[00:01:15] Mike: Do I go first?

[00:01:16] Kristen: Yeah, you can go first.

[00:01:17] Mike: So in our last episode I said I was totally stealing that idea from Gianna the question, Tell me about a good mistake you've made lately and I did steal that and I used it in my director's meeting this week and it actually went over really well. Sometimes I'm a little bit, hesitant to share new ideas or these kind of, different ideas.

[00:01:41] And, I did, and it went over really well. And I think that will be something that I adopt as a regular opening to our director's meeting. You can tell me about a mistake that you made and what you learned from it. And everybody had one. It was pretty cool. So

[00:01:59] Kristen: I love that.

[00:02:00] Mike: Thank you, Gianna. You were amazing.

[00:02:02] Kristen: Yep. Yes. Gianna is amazing. If you have not listened to that episode, you should absolutely listen to it immediately or immediately after you finish this one. Your choice.

[00:02:15] Mike: Okay. What is your leadership moment, Kristen?

[00:02:17] Kristen: Mine is a another one that's related to a recent episode, on the topic of boundaries, but this is actually a personal one. So just for some context for listeners, so as we've talked about, I have ADHD, I am really terrible at making myself do things that I am not very interested in and I tend to get really hyper focus-y really fast.

[00:02:44] I've wanted for a long time to get back into having a really good workout routine again and I've struggled deeply with it. So, Mike generously offered to set up a system where when I hit certain goals for workouts in a week, he will do all of the cat litter management instead of just rotating it like we normally do.

[00:03:10] Your brain certainly perked up the minute we, like, you went from completely disinterested to strangely interested.

[00:03:19] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:03:21] Mike: Yeah.

[00:03:22] Kristen: Yeah. It's, it's been very effective, even the last couple of weeks aside, which have been full of podcast launch stuff and, migraines and back issues.

[00:03:31] Mike: I guess the ADHD brain is very treat motivated, very dopamine motivated.

[00:03:38] Kristen: yes. But yeah, it really made me think about incentives in general. And like when we're talking about boundaries and thinking about what we create and what we allow. So like how can we use rewards? Because I think everybody to some degree is treat motivated.

[00:03:58] Maybe, maybe some more than others. But. It's, it really made me start thinking about it from a leadership perspective because I think incentives are something where there's often really a lack of creativity and I've seen this in the past in leadership roles where a fun contest, like something's different, something that's novel and mixes it up with a interesting reward to it can really incentivize people to do something that they would not have otherwise. Especially competitions are particularly good for a lot of people. So yeah, so I've been thinking about that.

[00:04:35] Mike: Cool.

[00:04:35] Kristen: All right. So imposter syndrome. Dun, dun, dun. 

[00:04:43] Mike: So we started this over because I had a tangential moment where I tried to look up the word mycological, which I think is the correct word for the fungus kingdom.

[00:04:55] So, I mean, we're, we're going to start talking about mindset and the brain and mental illness, right? And imposter syndrome is a type of mental illness.

[00:05:09] Well, it, it's a distortion, right? Maybe a cognitive distortion.But that's, that is like a fungus growing on your brain.

[00:05:18] Kristen: Okay.

[00:05:18] Mike: Yeah. I was being tongue in cheek with it and I didn't really have that queued up for the episode, but, it is something that's growing on your mind that is distorting your ability to perceive yourself and reality correctly.

[00:05:36] And that's kind of a mental illness. Yes, no. 

[00:05:39] Kristen: it's definitely a cognitive distortion.

[00:05:42] It, I don't know. Neither of us are psychologists. 

[00:05:45] It's an apt, analogy even if it keeps making me think of The Last of Us. All the cordyceps zombies. Yeah. Anyway, putting that image aside.

[00:05:57] So I guess we could start with, what actually is imposter syndrome? And the definition that I've used for this in the past is that it's fundamentally the experience of self doubt, inadequacy, and incompetence, despite contradictory evidence like promotions, job opportunities, and other successes.

[00:06:18] Mike: Yeah, that tracks. It's very hard to convince high achievers often that they've achieved anything. I mean I've suffered from this a lot and we can talk about that for sure. But I remember when I was at my last hotel in San Francisco, I remember just really having a lot of anxiety about accomplishing things.

[00:06:39] Especially because after COVID things weren't regular and I didn't believe that I could handle it. Even though every pitch that was thrown to me, I just, I tapped it into at least a single or a double, and I just,every email put me into like fight or fight. Cause I never knew it was coming.

[00:06:58] And I remember Keno one time. Just said, oh, I'm not worried about you. I know you'll, you'll get this done. And I I stepped back for a second and tried to evaluate myself as if I was going to hire myself. And I felt at that point that I've interviewed enough people that I could, see what qualities would turn into a good employee.

[00:07:18] And I was like, Oh snap, like I would love to hire myself. I was like, here's a dude who just knocks things down as soon as they come to him. And the turnaround time is, you know,next level. Why would I not want this? I was like, oh, okay, so maybe I, I don't reach this like expectation of perfection that I set for myself, but I would certainly hire myself.

[00:07:41] And I was like, oh, and that sort of was the first time the light shone through the, the cordyceps growing on my brain of insufficiency. And I don't think the modern like business world is set up for like positive, real positive reinforcement. It's set up to, just get more out of you.

[00:08:01] Kristen: And not really build you up as a person or anything like that. And This has been one of the things that I think has been most surprising to me as a coach, who's coached a lot of people across a lot of different levels at this point. I have seen imposter syndrome to be so pervasive with people in very senior roles and people that the people on their team would probably have no idea, but almost all of them have experienced some degree of imposter syndrome.

[00:08:34] And, I think that's really worthwhile noting. I have a couple of things that I'll link in the show notes. But, I think we can't really talk about imposter syndrome without talking about gender associations to some degree. Because imposter syndrome, I think, has become really branded as this like women's condition over time.

[00:09:00] And actually if you have not watched Reshma Saujani's graduation speech for Smith College from last year, it's a really good listen. Again, it'll be linked in the show notes, but she talks about this as imposter syndrome has been basically used as an excuse for not solving a lot of the systemic issues that hold women back from leadership roles.

[00:09:27] And she says the three myths related to imposter syndrome and women are that A, there's something wrong with us inherently for having it, when the reality is that that experiencing discomfort during things that are difficult is normal. That it's our job to fix ourselves. So basically putting the impetus on women to, well, you need to manage your imposter syndrome instead of addressing all of the other things that are in place that make it so much more difficult for women to succeed.

[00:10:02] And that it's inevitable. and she talks about it being as a tool to keep us concentrated on our own inadequacies, not the system set against us. And I think this is a really useful perspective. I think there's a lot to be said here. And I think it has been used as a tool in a lot of ways.

[00:10:22] Back in 1978, the psychologists who first coined the concept of imposter syndrome, they actually called it imposter phenomenon, but they did categorize it as this condition or, phenomenon that exists primarily in women, particularly like high achieving women.

[00:10:43] And I was curious, if there's been more research on this because there's a lot of information out there. If you Google, like, how common is imposter syndrome, most of what you see is about imposter syndrome in women. there's this KPMG study from 2023 that shows that 75 percent of women executives have experienced imposter syndrome.

[00:11:05] So I actually found a meta analysis that came out in 2023 and they actually looked across a hundred plus different. 

[00:11:15] Oh God. 

[00:11:17] Mike: So. Beezus is here. Hi Beezus. We need some photos on our website of Beezus podcast.

[00:11:23] Oh my God. She's rubbing 

[00:11:25] Kristen: I'm going to actually take a photo of this and then we can put it on our Instagram.

[00:11:28] Mike: Can we please? so we can definitely talk about how cats do not experience imposter syndrome. Be they male or female. Wow. They are convinced of their supremacy. Yeah. And their absolute catness.

[00:11:42] Kristen: There is no concept of imposter syndrome.

[00:11:45] Mike: No, they're very confident.

[00:11:47] Hi. 

[00:11:48] Kristen: Wow, she's just licking

[00:11:50] Mike's nose right now, everyone.

[00:11:53] Mike: I mean, what is the meme, I want to enter a room with the energy of a cat.

[00:11:58] And they're like, is there anything I can eat or F up in here? No? you're lucky to have me anyway.

[00:12:05] I can definitely confirm that men experience imposter syndrome. I think, you're going to go into some of the data, but men are not as forthcoming as women about their vulnerabilities and their inadequacy or, they keep that, you're taught to bury that stuff deep down, stuff that down like a man, men don't cry and in business that's, 

[00:12:27] Kristen: She's rubbing against the mic.

[00:12:29] She's got to go.

[00:12:30] Mike: Bye, you're exiled. Bye. Enjoy dinner.

[00:12:34] One of my favorite stories is Edward Shackleton, he's a fabulous leader. He was an Antarctic explorer during the first world war and he, his ship got stuck in the ice like very early on in his voyage and he was just very, they were very foolish in what they did.

[00:12:50] They didn't think things through. They were just like, we're going to charge it. So that's charge ahead. he's, he, his entire crew, he kept them alive though. They traversed the continent of Antarctica. He sailed across the South Sea, the Antarctic Sea in a tiny little boat. They climbed a mountain almost with no clothes on the, I think it's St. George Island. And that's the mentality. It's like, we're just gonna do it. So, men admitting, like, hey, I don't know if I can do this. It's not, we're not taught that.

[00:13:23] Kristen: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:13:25] No, I agree. I think there's absolutely cultural things that make it harder for men to be vocal about it. 100%. Yeah, and back to the, so that meta analysis that looked at all these different studies, which have been pretty inconsistent. A lot of them said, yes, more women experience it. Others said there's no, it's inconclusive.

[00:13:45] The meta analysis basically can, concluded that there is a statistically significant association, but it's pretty small. And interestingly, they looked at a few different industries and within business, it was even smaller. So it's like a weak correlation. So it probably means that yes, more women than men may experience imposter syndrome, but we are certainly not the only ones and it's really not something that's talked about with men much at all.

[00:14:18] Mike: As you wrote that, I wrote down the word societal programming and I think women are given the message, You're not enough.

[00:14:27] You're not good enough. You're not pretty enough. You're not thin enough you'll never and that is, even more prevalent with social media and Instagram and I'm sure that is true for men too. But I think women really are victims more of that, you know.

[00:14:45] Kristen: Amazingly, I have not successfully forced you to watch the Barbie movie yet. 

[00:14:50] Mike: Yeah, but I'm watching Big Brother. I watched Love is Blind. There's a meme like, Are you even married if you're not watching some trashy reality show and your husband walks in and goes, What is this? And then he sits down and he watches six seasons with you, which is, so, you know.

[00:15:09] Kristen: Yes, but that actually was on topic. You, you summarized a really, I think now infamous monologue about what it's like to be a woman in the Barbie movie. maybe I'll make this your homework as we watch the Barbie movie together.

[00:15:24] it's funny.

[00:15:26] Yeah. Okay. I'm just going to start watching it while

[00:15:28] Mike: probably the Actually, 

[00:15:30] Kristen: what I need to just 

[00:15:31] Mike: I need you to watch like maybe or listen to 10 episodes of Jocko then 

[00:15:38] Kristen: Okay, but that's like 20 hours of content,

[00:15:41] Mike: Yeah, he's long podcasts, if

[00:15:42] Kristen: not like 30 hours.

[00:15:44] Mike: There's a lot of two and a half hour ones. There's a couple good ones. Yeah. 

[00:15:49] Yeah, it's super, it is very broey for sure. It's very dude centric. 

[00:15:53] Kristen: Well, we're going to have a lot of Jocko time next week when we cover Extreme Ownership. 

[00:15:58] Mike: Jocko Time,, I'm sure he would like that.

[00:16:00] Kristen: But yes, anyway,Absolutely. That definitely aligns with messaging to women. That, that you are not enough messaging and I think especially there's some evidence that it or some people who say that they've seen that it actually increases as women become more senior because there's this feeling of like, how do I have all of these qualifications and I've done all these things I've gotten here and like I still don't feel like I belong 

[00:16:26] Mike: Honestly, I come from some industries that have a lot of women leaders. I've had a lot of women bosses. There are a lot of women owners of restaurants. there are a lot of senior women managers in hotels.

[00:16:39] it's a soft field in a way, I think, that people can find their way up the chain of 

[00:16:44] a soft field, in the way of,it's a service industry, right? 

[00:16:50] Kristen: Yeah. I'll stop you and clarify why I grimaced at the word soft field. Cause I was just having this conversation in a coaching session today about why I hate the word or the phrase soft skills. Because I think it does have so many associations with being more feminine and the idea that we have like soft skills and hard skills and there's so much inherent connotation and that would like hard skills are more important when the quote unquote soft skills are actually most of what we talk about on this podcast and are incredibly essential for your success in your career.

[00:17:28] And it just makes me angry if I think about it for too long. 

[00:17:32] Mike: When you put it that way, I have to agree with you. Soft skills is probably not the right word. We should say like maybe human centric skills or technical skills or something like that.

[00:17:43] Kristen: Yeah, I'm not sure what the best phrase is similarly to what I was getting at with imposter syndrome, where I think imposter syndrome needs a rebrand, where it's something we talk about as part of the human condition and have it be less associated with women and people in marginalized groups in general, and have it just be something we talk about as part of being human.

[00:18:07] And I think there is definitely some evidence that it shows up higher in people who have a high achiever personality trait or like high in that like continuum. But beyond that, I would love to rebrand it. Listeners, I am taking suggestions. If anybody wants to

[00:18:26] Mike: Oh, that's fun. Can we do a poll?

[00:18:29] Kristen: Yeah. Yes,

[00:18:30] Mike: Honestly, I only heard about soft skills when I moved here, I had never heard that term before.

[00:18:35] Kristen: Interesting. I feel like I've heard it like my whole career, but that could be wrong. 

[00:18:39] Mike: Yeah. I, in New York, I never heard anyone say the word soft skills. 

[00:18:43] Kristen: Yeah. So I guess listeners, we are looking for new words for imposter syndrome and for soft skills.

[00:18:50] Mike: So I have a question. Do you think that? You know as a woman in the leadership roles. Do you think imposter syndrome makes people overcompensate and try too hard

[00:19:00] Kristen: Oh absolutely. 

[00:19:02] Mike: Yeah 

[00:19:03] Kristen: Absolutely.

[00:19:04] Mike: That makes you feel like unsettled in your position to you like you have to overachieve 

[00:19:11] Kristen: Yeah. You talked a little bit about your experience with imposter syndrome.

[00:19:15] I in classic, high achiever personality fashion.I fit all the stereotypes of somebody who would have imposter syndrome. And I'm very much a recovering perfectionist. All of these things. I have definitely experienced it deeply. And there have been, couple, one particularly dark time of my career where I had basically wrapped so much of my identity in work that when things weren't going well, it basically, I was in a very toxic.environment, it was really difficult to overcome that. And at that point, like the imposter syndrome was just paralyzing, right? So I've experienced it to that degree. I've experienced to much smaller degrees. I experienced it all over again when it came to starting a business and in many ways. 

[00:20:07] And I really enjoy working with clients on it because I think so much of the power in it is awareness and having like specific tactics that you can take to help combat it.

[00:20:20] Mike: I'm reading Denise Duffield Thomas one of her books Chill and Prosper. I think it's amazing and she really talks about this a lot.

[00:20:28] And she has such a unique perspective on overcoming this and like you don't actually have to conquer the world to find your equilibrium and your happiness and you can be rich and happy at the same time.

[00:20:39] Kristen: Yeah, we are Denise Duffield Thomas fans in this household.

[00:20:42] Mike: Huge fan. 

[00:20:44] Kristen: Yes. Another kind of interesting thing I wanted to share., So there's a person named Dr. Valerie Young, who has done a lot of research on, all about imposter syndrome and one of the things I really like about her work is she talks about these five types of imposters and I wanted to share these because I think they really help understand like what are the different forms that imposter syndrome can take and generally we might have some tendencies in these, as a, as an individual, but also might experience all of them from time to time.

[00:21:21] So the five types of imposters that she talks about are the perfectionist, whose focus is basically on how is something is done. So basically, if you have a perfect performance, except for maybe there's one minor flaw, like a 99 out of 10, that still equals failure. And therefore, shame that goes with that.

[00:21:46] Mike: Absolute failure.

[00:21:47] Kristen: Absolute failure. If there's one mistake, it is absolute failure. And then the expert is like the same thing with knowledge, where the focus is on like the what and how much that you know or you can do. So because you expect yourself to know everything, even like a minor lack of knowledge, like that one question that somebody asks that you don't know the answer to is failure.

[00:22:13] And therefore shame. And then the soloist. Who really cares about, who completes the task, so to basically to make it on the achievement list, it has to be you and you alone. And needing to ask other people for help negates the achievement. It means that you can't take credit for it anymore because it was not you alone. 

[00:22:36] And then the natural genius cares about the how and the when of accomplishments. So basically, you're measured in terms of your speed. Like, how quickly you complete something, how easily you complete something. So you could successfully complete something, but if you feel like you struggled to complete it, if you just barely won, then it doesn't count. Or you didn't do it fast enough. So it's really focusing on that type of failure. 

[00:23:06] And then the superhuman is in terms of like how many different roles you can juggle. This is I think a very classic one with women but basically you have all these different roles as a manager, team member, parent, partner, friend, whatever. Like all of these. If one of those, you fall short, it evokes that shame because the superhuman believes that you should be able to handle it all with ease.

[00:23:35] Mike: This list makes me uncomfortable. I, the only one I don't feel like I resonate with is the natural genius. I'm happy to spend years learning a trade everything else. Oh my gosh. It's. Oh, 

[00:23:50] Kristen: I definitely have that one.

[00:23:52] Mike: Do you? 

[00:23:53] Kristen: Oh yeah, like I've always been like a fast test taker, right? So even if I pass a test, if it took me like a long time to do it and felt like it was harder than it should be, it still felt like a failure.

[00:24:03] Mike: That's the only one I don't have. Do you have the other ones? 

[00:24:06] Kristen: Um, yeah, to some degree I have definitely experienced all of these.

[00:24:13] Mike: Oh, I had a real, when I was young, I'd have a really hard time with the expert one.

[00:24:17] I just could not admit that I didn't know something. I would try and squeeze it out of my brain somehow. Just the fear of people realizing that I didn't literally know every fact. Ugh.

[00:24:29] Kristen: Yeah, Yeah no, it's painful. 

[00:24:30] Mike: It's exhausting. It's painful. It's exhausting. It's a really unpleasant way to exist, 

[00:24:37] Kristen: Yep. 

[00:24:37] Mike: Which is a little bit why I said it was a mental illness.

[00:24:42] Yeah. Again, I don't, I'm not a psychologist. I don't necessarily want to say what the psychological classification should be where, but I, it is definitely a condition.

[00:24:55] Kristen: It's a very common condition. Whether it's a, I don't think it's a collection of traits per se, but yeah, whether it's like a cognitive distortion or collection of cognitive distortions that are very common. I think the other problem, like going back to the naming of imposter syndrome, and it indicates that it's something that's like unique, right? Where I think the reality is.it's something that ties back to our brains being wired for survival.

[00:25:23] Like where was I hearing this?

[00:25:25] I wish I could give whoever said this credit because I consume a lot of content. But the other day I was hearing something about our brains are wired to survive and not to thrive.

[00:25:34] Mike: We are wired to survive and not to thrive. 

[00:25:37] But it's distortions, right? It's an inaccurate way of viewing yourself from a variety of angles that makes you, you have a whole list here. Like less likely to share, less likely to get promoted, less confidence in your abilities to all of those things. 

[00:25:56] Kristen: Yeah. and that, that list of basically the costs of imposter syndrome, I think that is so important to make known becausewhat you were saying, Mike, when you're talking about when you woke you up to imposter syndrome was having the thought that I would hire me.

[00:26:13] Like my first thought with that is yeah, like, you know what people who experience imposter syndrome are often amazing hires. Because

[00:26:21] Mike: overachievers. They're overachievers. They're gonna try real, real hard. And, Which, you kinda want as a boss.

[00:26:27] Kristen: Yeah. which maybe is why,it's not talked about and, Yeah, and I think that's why we also need to talk about, the cost of it here, right? if people who are holding back from sharing ideas and asking questions, then that's valuable information that's not getting out there that, that could be really impactful for the success of a product or a company.

[00:26:51] If you're overlooking people for promotions who, would actually be more qualified, if your people are taking constructive feedback and over personalizing it, and that basically leads to retention and turnover issues, leads to people burning out and just generally a lot of effects on mental health and burnout.

[00:27:17] So I think that just indicates like why companies should be part of this conversation.

[00:27:24] Mike: They absolutely should.. And I think it's to the detriment of a company that their employees and team members don't fully like believe in themselves.

[00:27:31] Like at some point we're going to do the book It's Your Ship. Which is. one of my holy trinity of books and he's the most like supportive boss and he gets so many people to believe in themselves in ways they never had. He has a promotion rate that like eclipses the rest of the Navy because he raised everybody up.

[00:27:51] And as a leader, you can either try and the soloist, as you say, try and do everything yourself, which is pretty hard on a, you know, early Bert Krupp class destroyer with 300 P that takes 300 people to run rather than getting 300 people to, to, stand and deliver, so to speak. And so it is in company's best interest to help people like believe in themselves and find the things they excel at, like Gianna said, what gives you energy, and what do you love, and what can you contribute.

[00:28:19] Kristen: Yeah well, it's so interesting because as you're talking about this, I was looking back at those five types of imposters and they relate so well to a lot of the pitfalls, some of which we've talked about on this podcast already, that leaders fall into right. Like the expert who feels like they have to know anything that leads to the kind of leader who feels like they have to be the smartest person in the room and they have to know the answer to everything and that leads to all sorts of bad situations. Or the perfectionist who's so focused on how something is done, who isn't open to people coming up with a different way of doing something, like even if it gets to the same or a better outcome, being so focused on the how of it and being so focused on not making mistakes. I think so many leaders don't understand the value of making mistakes .

[00:29:14] And yeah, the soloists, the leaders who don't wanna rely on anybody for help, which is what you were talking about. I think actually, so many of the pitfalls of leadership relate pretty directly to imposter syndrome, which I hadn't thought of until now, but it's really true.

[00:29:32] Well,

[00:29:32] Mike: Well, confident leaders are humble, right? And we'll talk about that in Extreme Ownership. Um, if you're humble, you don't need to show off for anybody. And I saw this in jiu jitsu too. There are people very trying, very hard. It's the white belts, the brand new people that are trying the hardest. And they're trying so, so hard and they get injured and they injure you. And the farther up you go, the more you're just like working on yourself because you've fallen down so many times you've been tapped and beat so many times that if you survive long enough, you're just like, I'm just trying to, grow for my own path.

[00:30:11] And, where you are on the,the spectrum of, I'm sorry, Beezus is back. She's so pretty though. Look at 

[00:30:20] Kristen: She's 

[00:30:21] Mike: She's so pretty. Hi. Why is she obsessed with me. Hi

[00:30:26] Kristen: She is obsessed with Mike. 

[00:30:28] Mike: Hi.

[00:30:29] Kristen: Oh my 

[00:30:31] Mike: Muffin, that's my microphone. Do you want a podcast? 

[00:30:36] the, the O T L D R here is you must be like a cat, have absolute belief that you are the the greatest embodiment of catdom that has ever walked the face of the earth and that you should be adored and appreciated and fed and ow. She bite me. 

[00:30:57] Kristen: I mean, she has, she's rolled in here twice now during our recording with, There's no doubt. She's not thinking, Oh, like, what if Mike doesn't want to pet me right now? no, that

[00:31:10] Mike: She's not thinking, Oh, other cats are prettier than I am or

[00:31:13] Kristen: no. Yeah, we should all.

[00:31:16] Mike: don't I don't even know that it's ego. It's not the same thing as ego.

[00:31:19] Ego is like an overcompensation for ego is like overconfident and under confident at the same time.It's a imbalance. She doesn't, it's not like an ego. She just has absolute belief in herself.

[00:31:33] Kristen: Yeah, absolutely. So I guess other than endeavor to be more like cats. Let's talk a little bit about what are things that we can do.

[00:31:42] I kind of see imposter syndrome in a lot of the same ways that I've talked about the inner judge before which we got into somewhat with the leadership presence episode. Where it's something that's always going to be there and whether than trying to fight it or fix it and remove it, you're better off growing your awareness to it and then there's particular tactics that you can take to keep it from influencing you too much. What you don't want to do is allow it to keep you from speaking up or taking on new opportunities or raising your hand for projects that are going to really potentially skyrocket your career. 

[00:32:23] So I have five different, lessons from improv that apply to this. And some of these already sound familiar if you listened to our second episode. But the ones that I have are A, staying in the moment, really using exercises, like meditation, or other areas of mindfulness, that can help grow your awareness.

[00:32:49] The more that you're able to be in the present moment, the less you're in your head listening to your thoughts. And,letting them impact your emotional state. So really grounding yourself in the present as much as possible. 

[00:33:05] Embracing mistakes, which has come up in a couple of episodes now, but it's another one of my favorite things to talk about.

[00:33:12] Finding safe spaces where you can practice failing. And this could just be you in your bedroom doing exercises by yourself. I love improv exercises for this. I will link in the show notes, actually, I don't think I've mentioned it yet, but I do have a PDF that's 12 improv based exercises that you can do on your own.

[00:33:35] You don't even need a team to do them. So I'll link to that in the show notes so you can download that if you're interested. But those are a great way to just you help practice failing. Even if it's just with yourself, if you are also a recovering perfectionist, like me, it might be difficult for you to consciously make mistakes, even if it's just you, if nobody else is listening. 

[00:33:56] Mike: So that's a cool concept. I just watched all of the Olympics.

[00:34:00] Yes, yes, you did. 24/7. 

[00:34:03] Oh my god. This app was pretty good. Peacock really, you could watch on demand, you could watch the replays. My favorite sport is weightlifting. And if you're not familiar with weightlifting, it's really only two exercises. It's the snatch and the clean and jerk.

[00:34:17] And they're very dynamic exercises. The snatch involves taking the barbell from the floor overhead in one, one movement. And when they teach weightlifting, the first thing they teach you is how to fail. Because if you don't learn how to ditch the bar and you'll, you'll watch great, incredibly strong men.

[00:34:38] Let go of a lift faster than most like normal gym goers would we're gonna fight for that. But that's how you drop, 200 pounds on your head and or 300 power 400 and you don't come back from it. So they teach you first how to fail the technical process of failing and you kind of get used to that and judo too. Judo the first thing they teach you is how to fall .I haven't studied judo, but I have some judo friends.

[00:35:03] They spend weeks and months before they teach you anything except how to fall on the ground.

[00:35:08] Kristen: I love that.

[00:35:10] Cause it's, obviously there's safety reasons for that, but also it conditions you to the idea that you are going to make

[00:35:19] Mike: mistakes. You're definitely going to make mistakes.

[00:35:21] It's just a

[00:35:22] Kristen: foregone conclusion. It's so much of a foregone conclusion that the first thing you do is learn how to fall

[00:35:29] So I really like that. that's similar to if you go to an improv class, like early on, we celebrate every mistake, like even small mistakes, whatever it is, you actually celebrate it because it's part of the learning process.

[00:35:43] I think we, if we applied that to more things in life and at work, it would have such amazing impact. 

[00:35:52] Mike: I wonder what a human would be like if you raised them with that kind of acceptance of mistakes and failures. 

[00:35:59] Kristen: Yeah.

[00:36:00] Mike: In Jiu Jitsu they say, you win or you learn.

[00:36:04] Kristen: Ooh, I like that.

[00:36:05] Mike: Yeah, but you can also learn when you win.

[00:36:07] Kristen: Yeah, also true.

[00:36:09] Mike: so I've done a lot of learning.. It helps me though,It helps me though,jujitsu is the first kind of endeavor that I got into that it was very clear that I was never going to be great at. And I was very uncomfortable with that concept. I was like, I need to be the best. I was started when I was almost 40 and I wasn't that good. 

[00:36:29] I was like, how am I going to invest all this time and I'm not going to be the best in the world. And then I had to get over that. And the more I got over it, it's okay, it doesn't actually matter how good or not good or how much I win. There's so many lessons for me to learn. And when I focused on those,I've taken a lot from jujitsu that I can apply in life and in business.

[00:36:50] Kristen: But Yeah,

[00:36:52] I wasn't good, I mean, I, I can hold my own, but it's not, Isn't that interesting how, cause this happened to me too, when I started doing improv, I feel like a lot of people were like, Oh, so you really going to try to make a career out of this now? And to that, first of all, I would laugh at because the idea of me getting paid just to perform improv, it's comical in itself, knowing how, not fruitful that career path can be. Though, interestingly, I did end up integrating it into my work in a different way. But it was just so funny to me. Cause it's like, why can't we just do something for the enjoyment and learning of it?

[00:37:32] Mike: Well, we can, but I wasn't taught that. I wasn't taught the other, the reverse either, but I just I gravitated toward that.

[00:37:38] Kristen: So I like that. I feel like our conclusion to that one is find something that you can practice failing in, whether it's improv or a jujitsu class or whatever other thing you do, but practice doing something not to be the best at it or even good at, but just doing something for the enjoyment of it or the learning of it or whatever.

[00:38:01] And really focus on what it feels like to just make mistakes and then realize, because I think what happens with improv is the more you do that, it creates neural pathways in your brain and you start to realize, Oh, like the world doesn't necessarily end when I fail, and that helps quiet that imposter syndrome voice over time also.

[00:38:23] Mike: Or, you could just be 

[00:38:25] Kristen: you could just be a cat.

[00:38:27] Mike: just be 

[00:38:28] Kristen: But alas, we are human. The other kind of improv lessons for imposter syndrome that I have. So one of my favorite quotes is from Ginni Rometty, who's a former President and CEO of IBM. And the quote is, growth and comfort never coexist, and I love this concept of just basically finding comfort in discomfort, and by that I mean consciously, continuously, repeatedly doing activities that make you somewhat uncomfortable, but are not so uncomfortable that it's actually overwhelming to you and you don't feel safe.

[00:39:09] There's that zone in between where you're out of your comfort zone, but you're not all the way into the zone of unsafety. And continuously doing things that put you in that zone is so good for your imposter syndrome because it shows you, again, repeated evidence which you can use to bring back to your imposter syndrome of you being able to overcome things and you being in situations that were challenging and persevering.

[00:39:40] Mike: I think that's great. the one thing I would say for imposter syndrome helped me is like the farther you can detach, you can step back and look at yourself objectively.

[00:39:50] And I, I've heard some psychologists use this technique, right? They're like, and that's the observing ego we talked about in Boundaries for Leaders, step back, think about yourself as if you are not yourself. And try and really run it down. And that's in, The Gap and the Gain right?

[00:40:08] We celebrate our daily wins, but he has exercises in there where he goes back. He says look at yourself over the last 90 days, how much have you improved or changed or now look at yourself over the last three years. Now make a list of everything you've accomplished in the last 10 years.

[00:40:26] It will most likely, if you're listening to this podcast, it you're a high achiever and it will shock you when you look at the list of things that you've done in 10 years and faced with overwhelming evidence, it's very hard for the brain to continue the cognitive distortion.

[00:40:46] Kristen: Yep. Yeah. That's exactly what I was, thinking. That's cognitive behavioral therapy at its core, right?

[00:40:52] We all have these beliefs that are limiting beliefs, and one of the tactics for changing them is to overwhelm them with evidence to the contrary. So that's why I also always recommend to everyone I work with, if you do not already keep a log of your achievements of testimonials of positive feedback you've gotten from people, those emails that come through and they're like, I just wanted to thank you and tell you're awesome, keep all of those in one file.

[00:41:22] And that is another great source that you can go to, to overwhelm that cognitive distortion with evidence.

[00:41:30] Mike: And surround yourself with supportive people who believe in you. Because you can only listen to them say nice things about you for so long. We were like, maybe I'm, maybe I'm all right. You know, I'm okay.

[00:41:41] Kristen: Yep, that is also

[00:41:43] Mike: also, it's helpful.

[00:41:44] Kristen: very key, like having an inner circle.

[00:41:46] Mike: circle Or a partner for instance, that refuses to not show you support and love despite your best efforts to, to curmudgeonly, downplay any positivity in your life.

[00:42:00] is. I I, I don't know. I don't know. 

[00:42:02] Kristen: No, he married a positive thinker. I'm sorry. Sorry, not sorry. 

[00:42:09] Yeah, so I think that that brings us to the other couple things I was going to talk about with tactics you can do. A lot of it comes down to that practice of awareness and understanding your inner judge, which go back to episode two if you want to hear more about that.

[00:42:30] And kind of the last piece is really just rekindling a sense of play. Which is something we do not do and value enough as adults, but it's really amazing because it puts you in the moment and it helps redefine you to yourself as like an innovator and a creator when you're in that space of play.

[00:42:52] So whatever that means to you, it can come in many forms, but really finding ways to, to cultivate that is amazing. And maybe it's jiu jitsu or improv or whatever else appeals to you.

[00:43:07] Mike: I would like to say this is a serious cognitive distortion, or syndrome, or mental illness, or however you look at it, you should explore it. It will hold you back from not just higher achievement, but happiness in that achievement. Um,

[00:43:24] I read a book, I read Michael Jordan's trainer's book and he talks about the mentality of people like Jordan who are, they are truly never satisfied.

[00:43:33] You win a championship and you celebrate for 15 minutes and then truly he's onto the next thing. Like he has to do it again. So I identify with that, but it's not a path to sustainable happiness and, you can be wildly successful and not happy, but what's the point? 

[00:43:56] Kristen: Yeah. . I think a great, a great way to end this episode actually is for everybody listening.

[00:44:02] Take a few minutes after this and just think of a recent win and celebrate it. Because we don't do that enough.

[00:44:11] So yeah,

[00:44:12] Mike: Celebrate your success. Yeah. And do it for yourself. Not just for your, your team, but do it for yourself.

[00:44:20] Even if it's only one win a day that you're like, okay, that went well, that will generate positive momentum and you'll find you actually win more. We can talk about that when we do The Gap and the Gain but there's a lot of psychological research that, that kind of positive, momentum will give you far better results over time than any kind of negative self talk, negative reinforcement.

[00:44:41] Kristen: So celebrate.

[00:44:43] All right. we will see you all next week with Extreme Ownership by Mike's personal hero.

[00:44:52] Mike: I mean, Jocko, yeah, I, he's a little bit, I have a leadership crush on him for 

[00:44:57] Kristen: him, which is why, 

[00:44:59] Mike: uh, 

[00:45:00] Kristen: Yeah. He's

[00:45:01] Mike: he's a, he's a solid dude and his, his stuff is very, um, approachable, scalable, teachable it helps a lot of people. Myself included. 

[00:45:10] Kristen: All right, thank you so much for listening everybody. Goodbye.

[00:45:13] Mike: Thank you. Bye.

[00:45:15] The Love and Leadership Podcast is produced and co-hosted by me, Kristen Brun Sharkey and co-hosted by Mike Sharkey. Please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. We can't stress enough just how much these reviews help. You can follow us on LinkedIn under Kristen Brun Sharkey and Michael Sharkey, and on Instagram as loveleaderpod.

[00:45:38] You can also find more information on our website, loveandleadershippod.com. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you again next week.