10 Ways Improv Makes You a Better Leader

[00:00:00] Kristen: Welcome

[00:00:04] to Love and Leadership, the podcast that helps you lead with both your head and your heart, plus a bit of humor. I'm Kristen Brun Sharkey, a leadership coach and facilitator. 

[00:00:13] Mike: And I'm Mike Sharkey, a senior living and hospitality executive. We're a couple of leadership nerds who also happen to be a couple.

[00:00:21] Kristen: Join us each week as we share our unfiltered opinions, break down influential books and interview inspiring guests. 

[00:00:27] Mike: Whether you're a seasoned executive or a rising star, we're here to help you level up your leadership game and amplify your impact.

[00:00:44] Kristen: Hello and welcome back to Love and Leadership. I'm Kristen

[00:00:47] Mike: And I'm Mike.

[00:00:48] Kristen: And today we are going to be talking all about how improv makes you a better leader, which is kind of like the, the bread and butter of the work that I do. So I'm excited to talk to you about it more at length. But before we do that, we're going to take a few minutes to talk about our leadership moments for the week.

[00:01:10] Mike: So my leadership moment is I have one of my directors, I gave her the book, It's Your Ship many months ago. And I've,been,razzing her a little bit that she hasn't read it and she went on vacation and she started to read it and she's super inspired and she's going to starta leadership book club with, the team and maybe anybody in the region, not just in our company, but in anybody that wants to participate, which I think is very cool. 

[00:01:34] Kristen: Oh, that's really cool.

[00:01:36] Mike: So make more leaders, right?

[00:01:37] Kristen: Yep. I love that. I mean, we love a book club.

[00:01:41] Mike: a book club and we love a book club, but I don't always like to do it because it's not that I don't like to do it, but it can be a little like preachy or like, yeah, you know, like,I don't know, I think it's great, but at the same time itfeels like it's a college course or something, you know.

[00:01:57] Kristen: Well, it's nice when it's initiated by somebody

[00:02:01] Mike: else. Yes, exactly. And you're

[00:02:02] Kristen: ones actually running it.it's not like just you forcing it upon everybody.

[00:02:07] Mike: No. and, that's something I, I kind of learned from Jocko. He's like, when you have somebody like either young and they think they know everything or they are ready for responsibility, give them something, put them in charge and let them run with it.

[00:02:19] And they will find out quickly how hard it is to do anything that involves other humans. So that's my moment.

[00:02:27] Kristen: Cool. I love it.

[00:02:28] And mine is actually a article that, and kind of inspired me this week. It was on, Harvard Business Review. It's an article by Dan Ciampa I think. And basically he's making a case for why leaders should keep a journal. And I like this 'cause I haven't heard this as much, but I think it's really true and he's basically talking about keeping a journal of situations that happen as a leader and just basically writing down what happened with the situation and then what your emotional reaction was to it. And he talks about the fact that there's actually research showing that handwriting is better as well than typing, which is something I struggle with because I, I hate handwriting.

[00:03:17] I feel like my brain goes so much faster than it, but there is some research around it actually increasing memory retention and then engaging more of the brain. But overall, I really like this. I like it because it does take like an experience that, and sometimes these are, if it's a negative experience, sometimes like you just want to forget it, but it kind of helps you process it.

[00:03:39] It translates it into a learning experience and the other thing I like about it, too, is as we were talking about on our episode two weeks ago on imposter syndrome, one of the ways to help battle imposter syndrome is to overwhelm it with evidence to the contrary. So what's really cool about, keeping a journal as you can look back on it a couple years later, and you can see how far you've come and how a situation that was difficult for you in the past is now something that you handle with ease on a regular basis.

[00:04:15] So I, I like this. I think I'm gonna add it to kinda like my toolkit of recommendations for the leaders that I work with.

[00:04:24] Mike: I think there's a lot of scientific evidence about writing being far more likely to imprint something on your brain than typing. I find that. I take notes. I take a lot of notes. I used to write all the time. Now I type in Google Keep. I never read, go back to read my notes, but once, when I write them down, I remember them.

[00:04:43] Yeah. And it's super helpful. And, I think it's,correct. When you write things down or when you journal, however you do it, you're going to find nuance that you didn't know was there. It's like why therapists are like, keep a journal, you think you know something and then you dig into your brain and subconscious and more stuff will come out.

[00:05:03] Kristen: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I do think it's a very helpful process as much as I personally hate the physically writing down things.

[00:05:12] Mike: Your brain is so fast. Your typing is so fast. I'll tell you like a little tidbit of information and before I'm done telling you, you've already looked up six articles. You know the background, the people involved, the history, the, the rise of the ancient Mesopotamian civilization is how it pertains to whatever I just told you.

[00:05:31] So writing might not be great for you. I think the voice is interesting too. I go through phases where I record myself and take a lot of like voice notes and I think you can get, feelings out in that way too. Yeah. Um. Yeah. You know, it's a kind of introspection, however you do it.

[00:05:49] For sure. No, I think it's helpful. It's like motivating for me to do more journaling. I was like, are you looking at me to tell you that it's okay not to write things down?

[00:05:58] Kristen: No, no, I do believe the research, right?

[00:06:01] Like I believe in, evidence based action, right? And I guess there is one fun thing with journaling where I did like, I've, I've kept journals on and off, but usually like around specific things that I'm trying to like process out in my life. And the funniest one was, I looked back on a journal, when Mike and I were already engaged and I,

[00:06:22] Mike: This is the dating journal. I

[00:06:24] Kristen: It's not really a dating journal, it was just like that particular entry, I was just expressing frustration, just typical online dating frustration and

[00:06:32] Mike: think you showed this to me. It's about me, right?

[00:06:34] Kristen: No. It's not about

[00:06:36] Mike: No expectation with this one. Not sure where it's going.

[00:06:40] Kristen: Actually not about you at all because I don't. just expressing frustration of like a few first dates I had been on that I had been kind of excited about and then there wasn't really a connection and I was just like,

[00:06:52] Mike: Were you late for them too?

[00:06:54] Kristen: Wow, wow. No. not meaningfully late. I would usually show up like a little bit late for first date just so I didn't have to sit around awkwardly waiting for them. I had a system, okay? I had a rotation of bars on Polk Street, you know, it was a thing. But anyway, the funny part of this, if you'll let me get to it. The funny part of this is that I looked, I was reading back in my journal looking for something specific and I came across this entry and then I looked at the date and it was actually the day, like the night before we went on our first date.

[00:07:39] Mike: Was that February 8th? 11th?

[00:07:41] Kristen: It was February, well our first date was February 6th,

[00:07:45] Mike: February

[00:07:46] Kristen: Which you should know because we have

[00:07:49] Mike: I know, but I'm not good with dates. I'm good with locations. So I know the exact moment we met. I know where we met. I know what you were wearing, how late you were,

[00:07:59] I I'm not as good at dates.

[00:08:03] Kristen: Well.. We have a thing on our shelf that he got.

[00:08:06] Mike: 6th. Okay. February 6

[00:08:08] Kristen: good in memory of our first date. That sounds weird

[00:08:10] to help commemorate our first date, I guess.

[00:08:14] Mike: Which was at the, ferry terminal.

[00:08:16] Kristen: At the Ferry Building,

[00:08:17] Mike: Ferry, is it building? I'm sorry. New York is the Staten Island ferry terminal.

[00:08:22] Kristen: Yes, yes. Um, but yeah. So that's my funny story about it. Is that sometimes you can look back on journal entries and see frustration about not meeting anybody and then the next day you meet your person.

[00:08:36] Mike: So. Aw. Aw. It's kind

[00:08:38] Kristen: kind of fun.

[00:08:38] Mike: Aw. So, leadership. Way

[00:08:41] Kristen: Back to leadership. So getting into the main topic of this episode. I'm going to be talking about my model for the work that I do, which is basically how improv theater applies to leadership development.

[00:08:57] And then I'm going to actually go through 10 specific ways that improv makes you a better leader. And then we'll talk about some ways to actually put this in action at the end.

[00:09:08] Mike: Can I ask you to do one thing first? Absolutely. Can you break down what improv actually is? Because I think when people, I don't know, I mean everybody, like what is it, comedy, like what

[00:09:20] Kristen: Yeah, thank you.

[00:09:22] Mike: thanks. Because I also. People will ask, are you a stand up comedian? No, it's not the same thing.

[00:09:27] Kristen: Yes. No, I think that's good to clarify. Sometimes I forget. I usually do this when I'm speaking, but, on a regular basis, I forget to do it. so improv is basically a form of theater where you are making things up without preparation.

[00:09:45] So the kind of the core of it is taking a suggestion from the audience. So that's usually like a word or a phrase or a place or whatever it is, depending on what the group asks for. And then it's generally ensemble based. So you have a group of people who then perform a set or like a performance that is entirely made up using that word or phrase as inspiration.

[00:10:10] And there are different forms of it, um, at a high level, there's short form, and then there's long form. Short form is, if you have ever seen Whose Line Is It Anyway?, is what most people associate it with. But that short form is very, like, game based. So, in Whose Line Is It Anyway?, by the way, if you have not watched, like, the vintage, Whose line is it anyway?

[00:10:36] Like those are some of the funniest people in the world. It's so funny. But

[00:10:41] Mike: The funniest thing I've ever seen was when Robin Williams guested

[00:10:44] Kristen: Oh my God.

[00:10:46] Mike: And as funny as all of those guys were, it was like. Here's their daddy that came to like Yeah I've never seen anything like it

[00:10:55] Kristen: Oh my God, 

[00:10:56] Mike: He 

[00:10:56] Kristen: so 

[00:10:56] Mike: so in his element, it was beautiful

[00:10:59] Kristen: This is like nineties, early aughts maybe.

[00:11:02] I highly recommend now I wanna go back and watch it again. I need to

[00:11:05] Mike: to watch.

[00:11:05] So there's a lot of like tech CEOs that are into improv. I know Eric Schmidt, the former CEO of Google, credited improv for training improv training for helping him develop better communication and leadership skills. I think he's not the only one. There's a lot. Yeah.

[00:11:24] Kristen: Real quick, just to finish that, we can get into more. Improving. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. life is improv, really. so yeah. So that's short form anyway, is basically you're playing games, so what, there's different common ones. And then long form is you're doing scenes, basically, so you're doing a series of actual scenes.

[00:11:44] Long form is what I mostly do, um, though I might do more, some more short form stuff in the future. But basically. Those are like the two types of improv you can probably expect to see, one, or sometimes a mix of those when you go to see it. And you'll also maybe notice that I say improv theater, I do not say improv comedy, because as an art form, improv does not necessarily have to be funny.

[00:12:11] There's like dramatic forms of improv that can be really interesting.I think I prefer like a funny type of improv, but, it's a little different from like a standup work where you're actually like creating a set. You're like coming up with all these different jokes and then figuring out what order to put them in, what works and what doesn't.

[00:12:31] With improv, like if, usually it is funny if it's, with experienced performers, but there's never a guarantee with anything with improv. So I, I always say improv theater because that's like the broader umbrella art form.

[00:12:47] Mike: So I want to lend some, credence to this. And I looked it up while you were talking.

[00:12:52] Howard Schultz, a former CEO of Starbucks, spoke about the impact of his training in improvisational theater on his success, citing the importance of being present and adapting to change in business. Jeff Immelt, former CEO of GE, same comment. Susan Wojcicki, CEO of YouTube, same thing, improv taught me to take risks and don't be afraid to fail.

[00:13:18] Success is not a straight line. Jack Dorsey, CEO of Square and co founder of Twitter, also credited improv with helping him develop better communication skills. Stephen Colbert, who doesn't lead a Fortune 500. Right?

[00:13:31] Kristen: Most, like most actors are, 

[00:13:34] Mike: Uh, 

[00:13:35] Kristen: have all 

[00:13:36] Mike: Steve Jobs and Tim Cook have both credited improv training for helping them develop better communication and leadership skills.

[00:13:42] I did not like, I looked this up.

[00:13:44] Kristen: I'm going to start integrating

[00:13:45] Mike: You need to, because, and, and Mark Bent, Bennett off, Bennett off, CEO of sales, Bennett off. Yeah. Has spoken about the impact of training and improvisational theater. Also Aryana Huffington. Satya Nadella, who's the CEO of Microsoft said the same thing, spoken about the impact of improv training on his success.

[00:14:03] Wow. I did not, I knew this, I knew the Google guy and I thought the senior guy, but I did not realize all of these people have, this is like a Silicon Valley thing maybe, or like a West coast, I guess Seattle is a Microsoft, but there's a lot of them. Cool. That's

[00:14:18] Kristen: cool. I love that.

[00:14:20] Mike: Thank you Google. I 

[00:14:24] Kristen: your use of Google to help support that. Well, uh, well, yes. So that's, the, the high level, right? The, what is improv? And clearly there's a lot of proven cases of very successful leaders who have credited improv with helping them in a lot of different ways. So I have a model that I created called the Ad Lib Leader and this is my kind of like my model for what are the principles of leadership that improv actually contributes to? And I will actually put this on our Instagram this time, I hope.

[00:15:03] I forgot the last time we talked about this to actually put it onto our Instagram, but I will try to remember to put it on there so that you can see, if you are a visual person like I am, you can see what this model looks like. But the core. Like, the, the circle inside of it is being present, because being present is, is fundamentally the, the core of improv, and it's also, I argue, the core of leadership.

[00:15:34] I like to say that presence starts with being present, like, when we're talking about executive presence. And we got into this a little bit with the, with episode two, and But that's really the core, right? Is like being in the moment, having that awareness of yourself and of others. Active listening, mindfulness skills are particularly good for that. And in improv, this matters because if you're not aware, in the present moment, if you're in your head, it does not work well. And this, this was really hard for me, especially as somebody with ADHD or like when I first started practicing it, because when your inner judge is going crazy and say you're watching a scene, because usually you have some people performing at one time, and then if it's a large ensemble, you might have some people like waiting in the wings, right? And it's really common to be waiting in the wings and then like your brain wants to start thinking about what do I want to do for my next scene and start like planning out something like that.

[00:16:32] And then you for, you're not listening to what's actually happening in that scene. You're missing character names, you're missing critical information, like where they are or where the context is. And then if you then go and try to start a scene with those characters or walk into that scene, you're missing those details.

[00:16:51] It's not very cohesive improv. I mean, sometimes mistakes happen from that and it's just funny. But,but the core of improv is really you have to be forcing yourself to be in the moment so that you're listening and you're getting those essential details. So that's really the core of it, right? Is presence or being present.

[00:17:12] And then the other four aspects are resilience, which comes down to responding quickly to changes and setbacks, like adaptability is really the core of that. Authenticity, so representing yourself truthfully to, to others and also supporting authenticity within your team as well.

[00:17:36] Supportiveness so that'sseeking to relate and empathize with others. So that's really where you can like connection and collaboration. And then creativity, which is using playfulness, non judgment, and all the other tools to unlock the imagination. And these are all like really essential aspects of improv because fundamentally the supportiveness is there because it is an ensemble based form at its core. So you are always about supporting the people in your team. A lot of what happens with improv is you're training yourself to recognize your authentic response and responding authentically. So you get a much better picture of like how to do that. And. It really unlocks the creativity in your brain.

[00:18:29] And then of course, as part of that, adapting very quickly is so core to improv. So this is like the model, right? With the five different aspects of what I call the Ad Lib Leader.

[00:18:41] Mike: Trademark.

[00:18:42] Kristen: Trademark.

[00:18:43] I do want to say. I've been using your,your model informally. You haven't like officially trained me in it, but I find these five, characteristics really important. And I find myself coming back to them when I don't know what to do.

[00:18:59] Mike: I think really since I was at the hotel and struggling for a while there, it's like, what do I really need? What's foundational that I can bring to work today and,

[00:19:09] move forward and not go crazy and support and just, okay, I'm going to be supportive. Okay. Resilience. Okay. Presence. What's my presence today?

[00:19:17] Just show up as a leader and listen to people and talk to people authentically. It's very powerful stuff and it does work. Yeah.

[00:19:24] Kristen: Thank you. Yeah, you really do. You always are bringing it back to that, which I really appreciate.

[00:19:30] Mike: appreciate. I'm big on, the root, on the foundation, on fundamentals and like first principles because,the first thing you says is present, right?

[00:19:39] It's so hard to be present. We're on our smartphones all the time. The demands on our attention are, legion at this point, I'm getting an email, I'm getting a call. I'm getting a slack. I'm getting, Ooh, look, a new Asana task. And, but actually the person sitting in front of me is the one that needs my attention the most.

[00:19:55] And as a leader, it can be hard to tune out the noise. And,I know we're gonna do The Coaching Habit later, but I think these kind of go hand in hand. The more you do these the more

[00:20:07] Kristen: Kind of present you'll be with the people that are closest to you that have the most impact

[00:20:13] On your team's performance or on your performance really. And if you can tune out the noise and do these things, you will coach people in a way that makes them, disruptive in terms of the amount of energy they're going to pour back into your mission. and that's priceless as a leader because you can just get, Task overload.

[00:20:33] Mike: And I'm going to complete all these tasks that have been thrown at me, but I'm not going to succeed in the, in the big picture.

[00:20:39] Kristen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That feeds in nicely into the, the 10 ways that improv makes you a better leader.

[00:20:48] The first one is it helps you stay present and mindful in the moment, which is really not something that I think is. commonly talked about in more traditional leadership models. I think there is a lot more mindful leadership as a concept is a lot more prevalent now, but it's something that takes a lot of practice and training because it's, our brains are taking in so much information all the time and our thoughts are constantly going to be going everywhere, right?

[00:21:20] So the being able to be present in the moment and especially be present with other people is so powerful. And I think it's important to acknowledge that, it still takes a conscious effort. It's something you can get better at over time by building up those neural pathways, and it really increases your awareness of both what's happening inside of you, your feelings and what's happening with the people around you and empathy.

[00:21:47] But it is something that will always require some conscious effort because your brain is going to bounce around. It's going to do that. That's what our brains are wired to do. So it really does require that being intentional and building up this muscle, which you can do improv obviously, but also a lot of, there's a lot of overlap between improv exercises and mindfulness.

[00:22:12] And when it comes to that area. So the, even just having some kind of mindfulness practice, I talked about this in episode two a little bit as well, but it doesn't have to be a meditation, but doing something mindfully, even if it's just like two minutes where you're washing the dishes and you're actually just like thinking about how the dishes feel and how like the temperature of the water and all that, like just doing that over time really helps build up those muscles in your brain.

[00:22:40] Crafts, arts and crafts and hobbies that involve a lot of discipline. Like I found woodworking made me very present. Painting makes you very present. These things that like take you out of the like analytical side, problem solving side of your brain. I think you talk about play a lot and I go back to this speech by John Cleese on creativity and business.

[00:23:02] Mike: I think that's, people are waking up to Oh, it's not all numbers and dividend. Those are great. Like you have to have those skills, but like, you know, yeah.

[00:23:11] Kristen: We'll get into play.

[00:23:13] Mike: But, yeah, the number two, which really goes hand in hand with being present as a leader is it transforms your active listening skills. And I, I will refer back again to episode two where I talk about The Three Levels of Listening, and I'll also include that, the graphic that goes with that on our Instagram for this episode.

[00:23:37] There, but in, essentially, we're, most of us are at the base level of what we consider listening. We're really, we're listening to respond. We're not listening to really understand the point of view of the person and read between the lines and try to get an idea of what they're feeling and where they're coming from.

[00:23:53] Kristen: We're listening and we're like, in the back of our heads, we're thinking, oh yeah, I think I'm going to say this next. And that's also something that over time with improv, you you train yourself out of and you get a lot better at focusing on what's happening in the scene in front of you and doing less of planning out what you want to do next or being in your head, like criticizing yourself for what just happened, like whatever it is.

[00:24:18] So that is something you can train your brain at to make it easier to listen in the moment. But like with being present, it is always going to take some conscious intention to do that. And then number three is it boosts your confidence in public speaking and presentations. I think this is probably what most people associate with doing improv, is they think Oh, that's a really good way to grow your public speaking ability. And it absolutely does. It does. I think the main benefit of it, even for when you're doing like prepared presentations, is by putting yourself in these situations, you're putting yourself on the spot where everyone's paying attention to you and you're coming up with something and you don't have time to think about it in your brain first and analyze it before you say it out loud.

[00:25:10] You just have to say it and go with it. Doing that enough and making mistakes and seeing that like the world doesn't end and just getting through your brain that like, Oh, I can do this. I can make stuff up on the spot and maybe it's not always great, but I survive it, right? Like I get through it.

[00:25:28] By doing that, it makes it a lot easier in situations where you're presenting something that you've already prepared, right? I think it's like where athletes will often train in Colorado, right? At altitude. Because once you've been training at altitude, it's a lot easier when you get back to sea level and you're basically training on hard mode to help prepare you for it.

[00:25:52] And I think you definitely see that effect with improv, where if you are doing those exercises enough, you'll definitely see an impact on just how you show up in speaking in general.

[00:26:02] Mike: I agree. Public speaking is hard for almost everyone, It's.It's good to put yourself in uncomfortable situations. jujitsu definitely helped me with that. Being crushed by somebody for five minutes and not being able to get out and be like, okay, in the beginning you tap out from pressure a lot, somebody is on top of you and you're like, I just can't take this.

[00:26:22] I'm claustrophobic. You're not actually in danger, but it feels amazingly terrible. And you'll tap from that for a long time. And then at some point you'll be like, I'm a, I'm probably okay. And you'll learn to, to at least breathe and relax. And maybe you can turn on your side just a little bit, just to get a little more air.

[00:26:41] And you might not be able to get out, but you're like, I can exist here. And I made that the beginning of my game is you can crush me, but I'm going to be okay. And I'm going to wait you out and you're going to get tired. Old man jujitsu, they call it, And you're like, I'm going to leave at the end of the day and I'm probably going to be okay.

[00:26:59] Of all the things that are dangerous, that's not that dangerous to you. It just, it feels very dangerous. People are more forgiving of, public speakers than, than the person speaking really realizes. Like, you trip over words and you're like, they think I'm crazy.

[00:27:15] No, they, people are able to like form comp complex opinions about you that don't just in, hinge on, on any mistake you might've been making at a small mistake that you might've been making at that moment, and the ability to like recover from a. And this is an unusual appearance by our more reclusive, far more complicated cat.

[00:27:37] Hi Arya. Hi baby. Oh, this is new. Hi.

[00:27:42] Kristen: It wouldn't be a recording if we didn't have a cat appearance. It's just not the usual cat.

[00:27:47] Mike: Special order cat.

[00:27:48] Kristen: Yeah, she's pretty amazing.

[00:27:49] Mike: Hi. That's it, huh?

[00:27:51] Kristen: Okay, you're not going to mew for us?

[00:27:53] Mike: she's mew, mew, mew, mew, mew, mew, mew. Could you do it into the microphone? Yeah,

[00:27:58] If 

[00:27:58] you could do that into the microphone, that'd be great.No,

[00:28:00] Kristen: she's just going to rub up against the pop filter instead.

[00:28:03] Mike: Can we get a mew? 

[00:28:04] Kristen: Would you like to say something, Arya? 

[00:28:07] Okay, guys, well, we tried to get you some cute mewing on mic,

[00:28:11] Mike: on the

[00:28:11] Kristen: but alas, our cat is a cat.

[00:28:15] Mike: Cat is cat.

[00:28:16] Kristen: She does not perform on

[00:28:18] Mike: not perform on command. I'm always amazed I see those you know, America's Got Talent videos. And every now, every couple of years, there's like some cat that, that does crazy tricks. And I'm like, how did you get that to happen?

[00:28:30] There's a joke in one of the Ocean's Twelve. And they come up with some scheme and they're like, no, we don't have time to train a cat. How do you train a cat?

[00:28:41] Kristen: Yeah.

[00:28:42] Mike: How does that work?

[00:28:43] Kristen: Great question. Anyway, though.

[00:28:46] Mike: Anyway.

[00:28:47] Kristen: So getting into number four, which is it reduces fear of failure and perfectionism and improves improves Impostor Syndrome at the same time.

[00:28:57] We talked about this kind of a lot in the Leadership Presence and Impostor Syndrome episodes as well, but basically giving your brain a safe space where you can make mistakes frequently and it's not the end of the world, like really helps train your brain that like making mistakes is not is okay, right?

[00:29:18] It's not the, it's not the end of the world. And generally, like, if you're a perfectionist, this is not going to, like, you don't have to be afraid of, oh, if I do this too many times, I'm just going to get sloppy and I'm going to be okay with making mistakes. And I'm not going to be a high performer.

[00:29:30] That is not what happens. You're still going to be very achievement oriented, but it just helps reduce that paralyzing fear of failure that can actually get in the way of your success.

[00:29:42] Mike: I'd like to jump in. I think it's important that we define what success is as also, we say many times recovering perfectionist.

[00:29:49] When I was a musician, it was about hitting all the right notes, right? Like you can't go in, but here's the thing. In general, you don't make a lot of mistakes in a normal performance, right? You don't go on stage and play Mahler 6, but I did see the timpanist in Houston come in like one bar early in a very like dramatic moment in Mahler 6, and you know what?

[00:30:11] He didn't get fired. That doesn't happen a lot, but when you take auditions, you will make at least one mistake, and you're playing all these like xylophone excerpts and snare drum excerpts, and I very much trained to be as robotic as possible and not make a mistake, but I had a committee member tell me one time, he's like, no, everybody hits a wrong note in an audition, almost everyone.

[00:30:35] And we are more impressed when you can recover from that mistake and the rest of your audition goes well than when you make a mistake and it goes downhill from there. So choose your own adventure there.

[00:30:48] Kristen: Yeah. This is bringing up a lot of feelings for me.

[00:30:51] Mike: for me. Is it?

[00:30:52] Kristen: From my, making mistakes while I was a

[00:30:56] Mike: Simone Biles made tons of mistakes in her gold medal, and she, they won't, there's, it's a question of what do you consider a mistake?

[00:31:04] What do you and what is the most important part of what you're doing in public speaking? I would say that it's your sincerity and does your team or your crowd, you know feel the heart and Foundation of what you're talking about not did I not stumble over my words, you know So what is success? What it's important to define that and think about that.

[00:31:28] Kristen: Agreed. Yeah.

[00:31:29] Mike: Is it my own perfect performance or is it, my team goes forth and conquers and crushes our quarterly goals. if they can do that, I'll show up on stage in a clown outfit, 

[00:31:38] Kristen: And even in music, and I think, especially, I think this is, this has to be true for percussion to some, for some degree too, but definitely true with like, I played the flute.

[00:31:49] And,yes, you want to not make mistakes. You also don't want to be a robot because your musicality, like your expressiveness, like what you bring to the performance that is true to the original, but also it has some emotion in it and and stays true to like what the composer was trying to get across is more than just like robotically not making mistakes.

[00:32:10] So even in classical music,it's important to remember that it's not just being a robot. That is not the only definition of your success as a musician., so. But yeah, I have a lot of feelings

[00:32:24] Mike: Do you have a feeling it's, it's tough

[00:32:26] Kristen: From when I was a teenager and not able to handle this very well. So yeah, so going into the next one, which is number five, it encourages creative thinking and innovation.

[00:32:39] And I like to talk about the difference between divergent and convergent thinking. So there, there's two types of thinking and both of these are essential for innovation. So you have divergent thinking, which is like the generation part. So it's your ability to generate creative ideas by exploring many possible solutions.

[00:33:03] So if you're thinking, I think of it as like a kind of sideways diamond, right? So the divergent part is you're expanding out, you're creating, you're coming up with the ideas. And ideally you're generating enough ideas and you're investing enough effort in the divergent thinking part that you're having really good ideas like that's where the best ideas come from right is when you're giving space to divergent thinking and then you have convergent thinking which is the ability to put different pieces or perspectives of a topic together into an organized logical manner and your ultimate goal is to find like a single answer right. So this is like the classic idea of what brainstorming is supposed to be where you dedicate time to just coming up with as many ideas as possible.

[00:33:50] And then you narrow those down to find the best solution. The problem is that most of us just jump straight to the convergent thinking part. And these have to happen in separate spaces. Or separate times. You have to dedicate separate times because if you try to combine them, like the convergent thinking is always going to win.

[00:34:14] So I think everybody's probably been in like a brainstorming session where it was supposed to be like, there's no bad ideas, but then you find yourself going down the trap of analyzing the ideas that are brought up and that will, kill your creativity, right? So I think the beauty of improv exercises is it really opens up that space where anything is possible and that's where the really often hysterical, but also just really cool ideas come from.

[00:34:43] But also this comes to play in the workplace and as a leader, like really thinking about dedicating space for divergent thinking and separately for the convergent thinking and not letting them mix so that you can get the best, most creative ideas possible. And then number six is it enhances your empathy and other aspects of emotional intelligence as well. And we're actually going to do, I think we'll have an emotional intelligence episode and three or four weeks, I think. So we will get deep into like, what is emotional intelligence? What are the aspects of that?

[00:35:22] But in short, improv definitely contributes to this because you're playing different roles. You're embodying different characters and perspectives. You're living life thinking about like different emotional states and it also trains you to observe the emotions happening with the other person that you're doing this with and call those out, which is very handy both at work and in home, right?

[00:35:47] So there's, that's one of the many ways that it helps to build your emotional intelligence skills in a fun way.

[00:35:56] This is cool stuff.

[00:35:57] 

[00:35:57] Kristen: So number seven is it improves your decision making skills, especially in high pressure situations. And this is also going to be a kind of near future topic episode on decision making as a leader, but in short, improv really allows you to get more in touch with your intuition when you're making decisions and separating out from cognitive bias, which I love to talk about, and your inner judge, which we've already talked about on some past episodes, And that really, especially when you combine it with some frameworks for when you're making, more challenging decisions, that allows you to both make quicker decisions for the things that just require quick action, and it also allows you to generate more options when you're thinking about, what are your possibilities when you're making decisions.

[00:36:51] And I think as we'll talk about when we do our Coaching Habit episode, there's research that shows that the more options you generate when you're making decisions, the more likely your decision is to be successful.

[00:37:05] Mike: I have observed that about some of the more effective leaders, in meetings and brainstorming, they just come up with off the wall stuff and they just, they're not inhibited by,I don't know if it's the inner judge there.

[00:37:18] They don't worry that these ideas are not good or might not be good. They just, they're coming up with some stuff and they're efforting solutions and they're going to keep looking for a solution until they find something that has. Has traction, has legs. And, I see myself doing that too in these meetings that I'm in nowadays.

[00:37:35] It's like,I used to be much more conventional and negative and part of it's negativity. It's Oh, we'll never, we can't figure this. No, that's very like limiting thinking, but you reach a level where you're like, I just need to, the main thing I need to do is come up with some ideas.

[00:37:51] Something in there might have, some worth and then we'll come up with something else from that and then maybe it'll spur somebody else to think this and then you know. This is what you know, I'm sorry to go back to Jocko, but he calls default aggressive. He doesn't mean actually be aggressive.

[00:38:06] Kristen: He means just start moving just take action. Just start thinking just start looking, and that Is a bias if you will, but it's a very healthy bias for a leader Yeah I'm going to get Jocko in every pod. No, I'm not. But it's nice to see how all of these things like tie together, For sure, yeah. The more episodes we do, the more we can relate them to each other. So podcasting is fun.

[00:38:34] Mike: Podcasting is fun.

[00:38:35] Kristen: Yeah. So the number eight is it grows your ability to adapt to change, which I think is most people like the first thing they think about with improv is thinking on your feet, right? But that includes adapting to changes in the workplace or things that, that might come on very quickly. And I can say as somebody who worked in tech where there's things are changing all the time, this comes in very handy. 

[00:39:00] And then number nine, it enhances your ability to manage conflict and navigate difficult conversations. And this really is a product of some of the things we've already talked about in these ten ways, right? The skills like active listening, like empathy. And the adaptability, quick thinking, these really help you in handling conflict and handling difficult conversations. And we will definitely dedicate some future episodes to this topic in particular.

[00:39:33] You know, leadership can feel like an unapproachable subject or you can maybe have a job that,you're growing into. And especially in the earlier parts of your leadership career, it's like,this is a job that requires,esoteric thinking, or it's like, what is this?

[00:39:51] Mike: How do I accomplish this? But there are in fact like best practices that you can employ in the myriad of situations that are going to come at you. It was something you said, difficult conversations. It's likeI am faced with so many different problems, and or different employee problems or different situations.

[00:40:11] But there is in fact like a, order of operations of best practices that include empathy and active listening that can 90 percent inform you about what to do next. And a couple of times, like you learn how to deal with HR and learn how the, your company's process works. And then you do exactly that.

[00:40:31] You,you have,active listening, you listen to what's going on, you listen to everybody talk, you don't make judgments, you have the, empathy and you try and feel where everybody's coming from, and then you put it through the lens of the law and your company's policies and the needs of the job and the mission and then you will know what to do.

[00:40:51] So even though this is such a

[00:40:53] Kristen: It feels like an unapproachable topic in some ways. It is in fact not. And with these best practices you can be a very effective leader without being born one. You don't have to be born, General Patton,to be an effective leader. And sometimes it's better that you're not.

[00:41:11] Mike: So I thought that, I thought number nine was, was right on point.

[00:41:15] Kristen: And then finally, and this is where playfulness really comes in, Mike. It infuses joy and positivity into your leadership style. Because by, by doing improv exercises, they are fundamentally playful, right? They're fundamentally creative and they're opening your brain up to more like the child within you, which playfulness is really not a value we have in our society for adults.

[00:41:39] So it's helpful to get in touch with that part of yourself, right? Cause that's that child within you still exists. And there's also just something fundamentally positive about improv because it's so much of it is about support, right? So by, by doing these exercises, you're really helping to infuse more of that like joy and positivity into your leadership style.

[00:42:04] And that's that comes into play in so many ways and just really impacts how your team sees you as a leader.

[00:42:12] Mike: We just listed like 10 tech leaders, very successful tech leaders that were doing improv. And I think part of it is I want to have fun in my life and I want to have fun at work.

[00:42:21] And I know Zuckerberg, Mark is doing jujitsu now. And there's all these photos of him like training with Israel and Assadia. And it's okay, Jiu Jitsu is like that. It's a, it's can be very playful. You know, you're a kid on a mat rolling around and it's,it will open up parts of your brain.

[00:42:39] The logical thinking parts of your brain are not the only ones that are beneficial to success, your success, your team success, all of that. And so, Yeah. Yeah.

[00:42:52] Kristen: I love it all.

[00:42:53] Mike: Okay, Kristen, how do we put these into practice?

[00:42:58] Kristen: Uh, yeah. So, so yes, putting this into practice. There's a few different ways you can do this. Now, the one I will always recommend is actually taking improv class, which most people I know from experience will not do because it's just a little much. But if you have like the tinge of interest with all of this or you're like, Oh, that sounds cool, though I'm scared.

[00:43:18] I highly recommend just Google improv in your area and find like a drop in class so you don't even have to commit to like a six week class or anything. You can just go to a one night class and it's a really good way find out like, is this something where you're like, nope, not for me, never doing that again, or is it something where you might want to dive more into?

[00:43:40] So I always will give that pitch, but I also know that the vast majority of people don't have interest in actually taking an improv class. So there are a couple other ways that you can actually benefit from improv without necessarily taking classes. The first one is you can do exercises on your own.

[00:43:59] I actually have a PDF with 12 exercises that are adapted improv or mindfulness exercises that you can do entirely on your own without anybody else. So I will include the link to that in the show notes. So you can grab that. It's free. And by doing these kind of exercises,on a regular basis, you can really start to build up those same neural pathways that you would by doing improv as more in a class or performance format.

[00:44:27] So that's a really good starting point for starting kind of building up some of these these skills. And then the other one is you can also do this with your team. So there, there are exercises that are good for doing with meetings and such. But you can also, this really works well within like an off site, especially if you are bringing people together who may be in different offices most of the time or be in different parts of the world. It's a really good time to bring in a facilitator and do some improv based exercises as applied to leadership. I think it really, there's a kind of energy that happens in the room when this stuff is happening that is really very infectious, I'll say is the word I think.

[00:45:13] Mike: It's good to have fun together with your co workers.

[00:45:16] Kristen: Absolutely. And it's fun, but it also relates directly back to creating better teams and leaders. So,if you're ever interested in more about that, feel free to reach out to me. I have my LinkedIn and my website for my business in the show notes. I will happily chat with you about it or make recommendations.

[00:45:36] Mike: I have to say you're an amazing coach.

[00:45:38] You've helped me. But Kristen is absolutely available to coach you individually, to coach your team, to do leadership facilitation classes.

[00:45:46] Your team will benefit from it. We've done some stuff at my current. organization and it's extraordinarily well received and these are very practical exercises and classes that it's not pie in the sky it will be things that you can effort you can take away and you can use as best practices as you move forward to navigate difficult situations and amplify your impact.

[00:46:11] I think our tagline which I think is pretty cool. So there's my brief, testimonial.

[00:46:15] Kristen: Thank you, Mike. You're welcome. So yeah, so with that, I think we are, we're at the close of this episode. Thank you guys for listening again, I hope this has been helpful. And like I said, I love talking about this stuff, so feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn or by email if you want to just chat more, learn more about this.

[00:46:40] I will happily talk to you as much as you want to because I, I love nerding out on this stuff. So with that, thank you everyone.

[00:46:50] Mike: Thank you. All

[00:46:51] Kristen: All right. Goodbye.

[00:46:51] The Love and Leadership Podcast is produced and co-hosted by me, Kristen Brun Sharkey and co-hosted by Mike Sharkey. Please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcast. We can't stress enough just how much these reviews help. You can follow us on LinkedIn under Kristen Brun Sharkey and Michael Sharkey, and on Instagram as loveleaderpod.

[00:47:15] You can also find more information on our website, loveandleadershippod.com. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you again next week.